Another post about rape

2009 June 26

by Harriet Jay

By the by, I consistently use that title because I mean for it to operate as a trigger warning. I write a lot about rape, but sometimes I write about other things, and I don’t want anybody taken off-guard transitioning from “help computer” into wtf rape-talk. Case you were wondering.

I was re-reading my five billion goddamn posts about rape and force, and I realized (surprise!) there is a more succinct way for me to express what I was thinking. I tend to go on and on, circling a subject, trying to get out everything in my head that possibly relates to it, and then sometimes find I didn’t really address the subject at all. So, here is what I wanted to say in those five billion posts about rape:

If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean bitch”)
it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy bitch”)
it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up bitch”)
it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry bitch”)
it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“bitch got daddy issues”)
it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke bitch”)
it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill bitch”)
it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid bitch”)

If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

And we should not be surprised when they behave these ways during attempted or completed rapes.

Women who are taught not to speak up too loudly or too forcefully or too adamantly or too demandingly are not going to shout “NO” at the top of their goddamn lungs just because some guy is getting uncomfortably close.

Women who are taught not to keep arguing are not going to keep saying “NO.”

Women who are taught that their needs and desires are not to be trusted, are fickle and wrong and are not to be interpreted by the woman herself, are not going to know how to argue with “but you liked kissing, I just thought…”

Women who are taught that physical confrontations make them look crazy will not start hitting, kicking, and screaming until it’s too late, if they do at all.

Women who are taught that a display of their emotional state will have them labeled hysterical and crazy (which is how their perception of events will be discounted) will not be willing to run from a room disheveled and screaming and crying.

Women who are taught that certain established boundaries are frowned upon as too rigid and unnecessary are going to find themselves in situations that move further faster before they realize that their first impression was right, and they are in a dangerous room with a dangerous person.

Women who are taught that refusing to flirt back results in an immediately hostile environment will continue to unwillingly and unhappily flirt with somebody who is invading their space and giving them creep alerts.

People wonder why women don’t “fight back,” but they don’t wonder about it when women back down in arguments, are interrupted, purposefully lower and modulate their voices to express less emotion, make obvious signals that they are uninterested in conversation or being in closer physical proximity and are ignored. They don’t wonder about all those daily social interactions in which women are quieter, ignored, or invisible, because those social interactions seem normal. They seem normal to women, and they seem normal to men, because we were all raised in the same cultural pond, drinking the same Kool-Aid.

And then, all of a sudden, when women are raped, all these natural and invisible social interactions become evidence that the woman wasn’t truly raped. Because she didn’t fight back, or yell loudly, or run, or kick, or punch. She let him into her room when it was obvious what he wanted. She flirted with him, she kissed him. She stopped saying no, after a while.

These rules for social interactions that women are taught to obey are more than grease for the patriarchy wheel. Women are taught both that these rules will protect them, and that disobeying these rules results in punishment.

Here’s a situation every woman is familiar with: some guy she knows, perhaps a casual acquaintance, perhaps just some dude at the bus stop, is obviously infatuated with her. He’s making conversation, he’s giving her the eye. She doesn’t like him. She doesn’t want to talk to him. She doesn’t want him near her. He is freaking her out. She could disobey the rules, and tell him to GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER, and continue screaming GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME every time he tries to step closer, or speak to her again. And then he will be all, “I was just talking to you! WTF!” and everybody else will be all, “Yeah, seriously, why’d you freak out at a guy just talking to you?” and refuse to offer the support she needs to be safe from dude. Or, the guy might become hostile, violent even. Ladies, you’ve seen that look, the “bitch can’t ignore me” look. It’s a source of constant confusion, as soon as you start budding breasts, that the man who just a moment ago told you how pretty you are is now calling you a stupid ugly whore, all because you didn’t get in his car.

You could follow the rules. You could flirt back a little, look meek, not talk, not move away. You might have to put up with a lot more talking, you might have to put up with him trying to ask you out to lunch every day, you might even have to go out to lunch with him. You might have to deal with him copping a feel. But he won’t turn violent on you, and neither will the spectators who have watched him browbeat you into a frightened and flirtatious corner.

So we learn the rules will protect us. We learn that, when we step out of line, somebody around us might very well turn crazy. Might hurt us. And we won’t be defended by onlookers, who think we’ve provoked the crazy somehow. So, having your ass grabbed at the bus stop, having to go out to dinner with a guy you fucking can’t stand, maybe even having to fuck him once or twice, it’s a small sacrifice to avoid being ostracized, insulted, verbally abused, and possibly physically assaulted.

It’s a rude fucking awakening when a woman gets raped, and follows the rules she has been taught her whole life — doesn’t refuse to talk, doesn’t refuse to flirt, doesn’t walk away ignoring him, doesn’t hit, doesn’t scream, doesn’t fight, doesn’t raise her voice, doesn’t deny she liked kissing — and finds out after that she is now to blame for the rape. She followed the rules. The rules that were supposed to keep the rape from happening. The rules that would keep her from being fair game for verbal and physical abuse. Breaking the rules is supposed to result in punishment, not following them. For every time she lowered her voice, let go of a boundary, didn’t move away, let her needs be conveniently misinterpreted, and was given positive reinforcement and a place in society, she is now being told that all that was wrong, this one time, and she should have known that, duh.

For anybody who has ever watched the gendered social interactions of women — watched a woman get browbeaten into accepting attention she doesn’t want, watched a woman get interrupted while speaking, watched a woman deny she is upset at being insulted in public, watched a woman get grabbed because of what she was wearing, watched a woman stop arguing — and said and done nothing, you never have the right to ever ask, “Why didn’t she fight back?”

She didn’t fight back because you told her not to. Ever. Ever. You told her that was okay, and necessary, and right.

You didn’t give her a caveat. You didn’t say, “Unless…” You said, “Good for you, shutting up and backing down 99% of the time. Too bad that 1% of the time makes you a fucking whore who deserved it.”

Nobody obtains the superpower to behave dramatically differently during a frightening confrontation. Women will behave the same way they have been taught to behave in all social, professional, and sexual interactions. And they will be pretty goddamned surprised to come out the other end and find out that means they can legally be raped at any time, by just about anybody.

I am focusing on women here. I tend to do that, being one and all, but let’s mention something about men. If men have been raised to behave aggressively, to discount what women and weaker men want and feel and say, to obtain power and social standing through force, to deny emotions exist, to feel that women are fundamentally a different species, to set a boundary and keep it NO MATTER WHAT, to make a decision and stick to it NO MATTER WHAT, to feel entitled to sex, to feel they will be ostracized and possibly physically attacked if they don’t acquire sex with women, to feel under threat of harassment and attack if they don’t constantly maintain a hyper-masculine exterior, to prove their manhood through dangerous and degrading physical activities…

if you have seen men behave in this way, and encouraged it, and thought it was normal, so normal you didn’t even see it…

then you never have the right to say “He couldn’t possibly have done that” when you hear that your brother raped somebody.

That wasn’t concise at all. What I mean to say is:

The way men and women interact on a daily basis is the way they interact when rape occurs. The social dynamics we see at play between men and women are the same social dynamics that cause men to feel rape is okay, and women to feel they have no right to object. And if you accept those social interactions as normal and appropriate in your day to day life, there is absolutely no reason you should be shocked that rape occurs without screaming, without fighting, without bruising, without provocation, and without prosecution. Behavior exists on a continuum. Rape doesn’t inhabit its own little corner of the world, where everything is suddenly all different now. The behavior you accept today is the behavior that becomes rape tomorrow. And you very well might accept it then, too.

273 Responses

Quercki permalink

July 3, 2009

Wow. Powerful. True. Just, wow.

You are the best! 47 2
SunlessNick permalink

July 15, 2009

What Quercki said. Wow.

Like or Dislike: 11 0
Matt permalink

July 16, 2009

Harriet, I really like this piece. I shared the link on my okcupid account, and got tons of horrendous comments, such as:

*You secretly want to be raped by a woman, don’t you?
*I hate you and everything you post. A lot. Please die.
*sex_cells is a rapeologist and probably disagrees professionally with these articles, which i assume without clicking on them are mostly just words words words with estrogen sprayed on them by a territorial mountain cat of some kind
*I think I might have raped a chick once, but I’m not quite sure if it technically counts as such. Will this article help me make a determination here?
*(In response to one of my comments)
Did you actually read it? How about you point these good points out for us.
*I like the part where it says that it’s not rape if she has an orgasm.

Honestly, I don’t know what to do with this utter crap. I don’t even know how I can try to explain to people how important this piece is. I feel extremely discouraged and PO’d. Any thoughts?

You are the best! 34 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

July 16, 2009

Before I started this blog, I had been following quite a few blogs that covered similar material, and seen what kind of shit went on in the comments section. Different bloggers handle comments in different ways, and a lot depends on the structure of their blog (i.e. big communities seem to err on the side of letting comments flow and letting commenters duke it out themselves, while smaller communities can ban to their heart’s content, or get in mini-flame wars).

After seeing some of the comments I thought I could expect, and the different ways of dealing with them, I made the decision to be a heavy-handed censor. This blog is my space, for my thoughts. It’s public, so obviously I don’t mind if people read it. But it’s private in that I am Lord God King here. I decide entirely who is allowed to be public on my blog, and nobody gets to plead their case or question me. I also decided never to explain myself. This was something I learned out of an abusive relationship, but I found it transferred pretty easily over to abusive internet. Arguing rationally with somebody irrational does nothing but lend credence to their argument, and draw out the amount of contact and, thus, the amount of time they can belittle and mock you. So when I make a decision about abusive comments, I make it silently and I refuse to answer questions about my decisions, because my purpose is to end the contact permanently. This is my space, and I am more than willing to lose the love of strangers and even friends if the alternative is to be berated and insulted.

Now that’s obviously different on a social networking site. Some of the people leaving those comments may be “friends”, or friends of friends, which creates a whole new level of awkwardness and creepiness that a whole lot of rape victims can relate to (see: http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/another-thing-i-could-do-without/). It’s been a few years since I was on OKCupid, so I’m not sure if you’re able to delete comments that appear on your profile. That would be my first suggestion, because I don’t like seeing nastiness in my personal space, and also because I know a lot of rape survivors read this blog, and I don’t want them to see that nastiness either. They get it enough elsewhere, and since this is a space I can control, I’ve made the decision to make it a safe space for survivors.

(By the by, I’m publishing your comment, even with the nastiness in it, because it’s secondhand nastiness — which is a little easier to handle — but also because you asked a question I do want to address)

There are other schools of thought. Over at abyss2hope, Marcella seems to deal with nastiness by publishing it and displaying it (though I expect she cherry-picks the nasty, and we don’t see a fraction of the shit she sloughs through). I’m not willing to put that effort in, but I see the usefulness of it. In a blog that is about a culture of rape, nobody makes your point better than trolls. I mean, if you make a post saying something like, “Women are valued only for their sexual availability to men,” and then some troll comes in with, “Ha ha you are just mad ’cause nobody fucks you,” I mean, boom, you couldn’t have possibly been more succinct, or asked for a more timely or relevant case example.

For me, it all comes down to what you feel you can personally handle. I can’t handle having that shit on my blog. It makes me too angry, and all I want to do is respond respond respond, and that’s a trap I don’t want to get into: responding to crazy as if something sane can be made of it. I don’t like being on the defensive all the time, especially when I’m defending something so basic as “rape is bad, stop doin’ it.” Other bloggers can, they seem to thrive on it.

I think the thing to remember is that you don’t owe anybody an explanation for your behavior, thoughts, or feelings (especially not internet strangers), and it’s not your job to be the educator. I know, I know, things won’t change unless people stand up and yadda yadda, but you have to weigh that against your potential outcomes. There is nothing in the world that is worth a blind and permanent output of effort, regardless of outcome. We have to weigh our resources carefully, because we only have so many. Like, are you talking to a friend that you think is a good person but has a really offensive belief about women getting drunk and deserving it? Do you think you can have a calm and satisfying conversation together? Do you think this conversation can reach a point where perhaps you are no longer uncomfortable to be this person’s friend? Maybe that’s worth the effort. Are you in public and someone you don’t know very well has said something horribly offensive, and you don’t think you can change his mind, but you do notice some women around who are appearing really uncomfortable and would like to show them they have an ally? Maybe that’s worth the effort. Are you talking to nofatchix666 who thinks all women should suck his wang ’cause they’re chicks (unless they fat)? I’ll go with not worth the effort, because you’re just feeding his beast without gaining anything constructive for yourself, unless you’re the kind of person who really thrives on angry conversation. You don’t have to defend yourself against cretins, or explain the intricacies of their comments; they’re doing an awesome job speaking very well for themselves.

There’s a flowchart I wish I could pull up right now about responding to racism. Each branch on the flowchart tree starts with “Are you safe?” The basic idea of the flowchart is to help people drop this assumption of “must always respond because it’s the right thing to do.” If you are not safe, you do not respond, because your safety is primary. And safety extends to a lot more than physical safety. I know one of my major triggers is getting into a massive angry mindloop, where all I want to do is tear somebody down to little bitty pieces and explain why they’re wrong and I’m right forever. When I get into that space, it’s a really bad time for me, it sucks all the joy out of my life, and the only thing I focus on anymore is this person I really hate, which is so counter-productive (I hate you, please become a larger part of my life). That’s not safe. I can’t function like that. So I don’t engage when I feel that kind of interaction coming on, while refusing to explain my non-engagement, because my purpose of existence is not to bring education and enlightenment to all who demand it of me right now.

But it took a lot of trial and error to figure all that out, and I’ve racked up some embarrassing mistakes along the way. So, I don’t know, what I’m saying is, do you feel safe responding to those comments (either individually or via another post addressed to no one in particular)? Do you feel safe ignoring them? Do you feel safe letting them stay on your profile? Do you feel safe knowing any of the people who made those comments? Do you feel safe publishing their user names and profiles so others can see who made those comments? And as each of those decisions blossoms into new interactions, are you still feeling safe? If not, quit interacting, even if it’s suddenly and without explanation. Your safety is primary; nofatchix666 is not.

You are the best! 75 1
Matt permalink

July 16, 2009

Harriet,

I really really appreciate you taking the time and effort to write out such a great response. Thank you very much for giving me some confidence back after feeling like a deflated balloon.
I do apologize for including the nasty comments. After reading your response, I realized that it could be detrimental to people who read this blog. For that I am very sorry.

Those are some excellent points you mentioned. When I defended my/your argument I basically felt like I was spewing hot air into the abyss of the internet, unsure if anyone would actually care. I suppose I’ll just have to choose my battles wisely. I do agree that a ton of those encounters are simply not worth it. That makes a lot of sense.
Again, thanks for the great and lengthy response. I really enjoyed reading all of it.

You are the best! 19 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

July 16, 2009

Well, part of this blog is about discussing the fallout of rape. Sometimes that can be discussed without getting into details, and sometimes it can’t. And sometimes the more you talk about rape in the abstract, the easier it is to forget how horrific the details really are. People need coping mechanisms to deal with rape in the abstract — like trying to wrap your mind around rape statistics — but people also need coping mechanisms to deal with the details of rape. And you can’t discuss or learn or just relieve yourself of those shitty details without putting them out there. There’s a lot I have to say about my rape, and about rape in general, but before I could even get to that place, I had to talk to some very trusted people about the actual physical details of what occurred, because I had to get them out of my mind.

I published your comment, with the nasty attached, because it seemed like the nasty had hit you hard and painfully, and that’s a detail that needs to be dealt with. We probably could have had the same conversation if you had just said something vague about getting shitty comments, but I sensed you were quoting them directly because sometimes, when you’ve been traumatized by something shitty, you have to say it out loud before you can start to let go of the visceral impact. So I think it was okay — you probably didn’t publish anything we’ve never seen before, and I’d be super surprised if others who read my blog haven’t had the same question about how to deal with that shit.

Like or Dislike: 12 0
R. O'Quinn permalink

July 22, 2009

I ran across your site for the first time a couple of hours ago, and have been engrossed ever since.

I especially think that the above post is one of the most straightforward, CLEAR, and yes, concise things I’ve ever read about the psychology/sociology of rape and of the sexualization women deal with Every.Single.Minute.

Thank you for writing it. Thank you for creating and maintaining this space.

You are the best! 18 0
Dominique permalink

July 23, 2009

Wow. Just wow. That post says *exactly* what I’ve been thinking for a long, long, long time.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
softestbullet permalink

July 26, 2009

This.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Xenophanean permalink

July 27, 2009

Powerfully put across, and quite disturbing to read. I appreciate the non-reliance on jargon and the clarity of your explanation.

I don’t think that all women are being told by all societal structures around them that they have to behave in the submissive ways which you describe. However, I will agree that the pressure is there, coming from multiple directions, and hard to get away from.

I think you are absolutely right that social conditioning (of both men and women) is a major cause of rape, and I don’t think I have seen this issue put across more clearly and chillingly.

Like or Dislike: 7 0
Cute Bruiser permalink

August 4, 2009

Wow.

Made me cry. Not many things can do that. This is a powerful piece.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Jen permalink

August 4, 2009

I’ve never seen it put more succinctly or clearly. Just mentioning that “bitch can’t ignore me” look gave me a chill and a flashback. Which then turned into a montage, because during the course of a life, that look happens a LOT.

Even if, at the time, almost every time, I wondered if I was imagining it.

There should be classes in identifying and recognizing that look. I’d give the picture book to my preschool daughters TODAY if there were.

Maybe I’ll make one.

You are the best! 17 0
peaseblossom permalink

August 4, 2009

Here via Shapely Prose. Very powerful post. Thanks for making it.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 4, 2009

OMG, my blog had just calmed down for half a second, and now it’s on Shapely Prose? Holy crap, panic panic panic

Just kidding!

(not really)

(omg)

Like or Dislike: 4 0
celeloriel permalink

August 4, 2009

Here via Shapely Prose, too. Thank you for writing this. It’s excellent.

I read your “about this blog” page, and while it was excellent, it did not mention a twitter account. Do you mind if I tweet a link to this article?

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 4, 2009

I don’t tweet. I find a blog already sucks up enough of my really-shouldn’t-still-be-on-the-internet-but-oh-just-one-more-youtube-video time, so I try to limit all the other ways I could not be enjoying sunshine. Feel free to post wherever you like.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Ailbhe permalink

August 4, 2009

Oh, gods.

That explains SO MUCH. Ow. Shit. Hello, history.

I can fix this for my daughters, right? I think I can already see the five-year-old being taught not to express too vehemently… Urgh. I can teach my daughters not to take this.

You are the best! 15 0
Sophie Lagacé permalink

August 4, 2009

Excellent essay, thank you very much.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Latte permalink

August 4, 2009

Here via Shapely Prose. I passed it along to a couple of friends. One commented how she loved how you google things for the search terms. =)

I look forward to more fantastic pieces like this one.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Scarlett permalink

August 4, 2009

Also here via SP. This is an excellent post – in particular, the checklist of ways in which women are taught that various ways of setting boundaries/expressing displeasure or disagreement are ‘not okay’ is a very succint distillation of something I think lots of us have experienced, but have never seen put into words so coherently before. Thank you.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Sarmonster permalink

August 4, 2009

In response to Matt:

There are a LOT of assholes out there on the web. Might even be nice people in person, but anonymity seems to be permission to ‘let it all out’.

As my partner and I had to do with the Maribel Cuevas e-mails, separate them into
The Good -Supportive. Forward and enjoy

The Bad -Reasonable but derogatory, reply to these if you have an intelligent response or contradiction.

The Ugly- No redeeming qualities, just delete ‘em. Not worth your time.

Blame the perpetrator or the victim, But nothing gets done until we have a good, hard look at our culture and change the part where it’s OUR fault in encouraging the behavior that leads up to it.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Susanna permalink

August 4, 2009

Thank you. That made me cry. Thank you.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Blue permalink

August 4, 2009

“Nobody obtains the superpower to behave dramatically differently during a frightening confrontation. Women will behave the same way they have been taught to behave in all social, professional, and sexual interactions.”.

Thanks for posting this. For me, it also helps to lend some understanding to the way I responded just after being raped. I know it is going to be an issue at trial, but beyond trying not to judge myself for my response , I have not been able to understand why I reacted that way. This give me some context within which to make sense of my reaction; thank you.

You are the best! 17 0
Tammy permalink

August 4, 2009

Here via my friend Sirramnis on LJ (who’s also a guest blogger on CA NOW currently) who pointed me to it. I can tell you that as a woman in the IT industry I’m aware of some of your points daily. To be an effective tester means that you have to push back on issues that you feel are important that developers are trying to discount. Invariably I will be told to “not get upset” when I’m simply doing the same thing they are. I have to spend more time and effort getting my point across than my male counterparts all the time because I have to spend time explaining that, no, I’m not upset or mad – I’m just doing my job…

Which, of course, usually ends up in me being labeled a bitch.

The irony is that I’m often asked in interviews if I’m willing and able to push back when I need to. It seems to on one had be a desired quality but on the other I end up having to explain to those same people that I’m not mad or upset – I’m just pushing back – when it happens. Feh!

Like or Dislike: 10 0
DRST permalink

August 4, 2009

This is one of the best distillations of the “behavior continuum” I’ve ever read. I will be saving this to use in Gender Comm classes and elsewhere. Thank you.

DRST

Like or Dislike: 2 0
DRST permalink

August 4, 2009

gave me a chill and a flashback. Which then turned into a montage,

I did the same thing. I knew exactly what that look looked like and all those moments flashed through my head. Too many to count. Ugh.

DRST

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Hazel Stone permalink

August 4, 2009

Thank you. Beautifully written.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Carla permalink

August 4, 2009

I hope I’m setting a good example for my 15-looks-20 year old daughter. I’ve already reamed guys out on the bus who’ve made passes at her, and she’s seen me go unabashedly “shrill-bitch” on people for getting in my face.

Maybe it’s not the safest thing to do, but I REFUSE TO TAKE SH*T from people, and I don’t want my daughter to learn “meek acceptance” from me.

Like or Dislike: 14 0
Jha permalink

August 4, 2009

Here via Hoyden about Town, who was here via Shapely Prose (the interwebz! it sneakz everywhere!) – THANK YOU FOR THIS POST.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Erika permalink

August 4, 2009

Thanks for fighting the good fight, but OKCupid is a real pit. I’ve heard many horror stories from women dating men off that site, and I believe this site Psychotic Letters from Men owes OKCupid for much of its material.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
harlemjd permalink

August 4, 2009

I made a decision to stop dating for a while in college because I realized that I had a very hard time saying what I was and wasn’t comfortable with physically, and I was scared of what could happen if I didn’t get a handle on that. (I am amazingly lucky in the guy I was dating when I started to realize this.)

I attribute a lot of this to my dad being a teaser, and a very physical one. I’m talking tickling and poking, not anything sexual, but it was annoying as hell and every time I got upset he and my mom both told me to lighten up, be quiet, etc. I’m sure they’d be horrified if I ever told them what I was actually learning, but you can’t spend 18 years telling a girl that she doesn’t have the right to complain about touching she doesn’t like and then send her off to college and expect her to be able to speak up about touching she doesn’t like.

You are the best! 48 0
Ju permalink

August 4, 2009

Wow. This was succinct and powerful – there’s a lot to digest and think about. In the way that… this is stuff we do actually already know, but it’s background noise, we accept it, don’t question it and actually don’t realise it’s there till something like this turns a mirror upon it.

I also really loved your reply to Matt, and I think the context of the nasty included was contextually useful. Thank you!

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Linda Radfem permalink

August 4, 2009

Hey, I’m here via SP via Hoyden. Thankyou so very much for articulating this issue so well. Especially the part about the behaviour we adopt to stay safe then being also used to blame us for our own rape.

“Women who are taught that physical confrontations make them look crazy will not start hitting, kicking, and screaming until it’s too late, if they do at all.”

To this I would add that physical aggression also makes us look ugly, not hot, and we are taught that we must *always* be hawt.

I really relate strongly to your blog. Thank you again.

Like or Dislike: 7 0
Book Girl permalink

August 4, 2009

This is so spot-on, so right, and so beautifully and strongly written. Thank you. I remember as a child and teenager thinking about these things, how was I going to use the self-defence classes my parents sent me to, what use was it them (parents) telling me how to protect myself against attackers, when they were forever telling me not to talk so loudly, so much, be so opinionated. When they expected me just to let doctors and physios do painful things to my body (I have a physical disability from birth) without crying or saying no, how was I supposed to stop strangers from hurting me?

Thank you for putting this into words. I will be linking to this post

Like or Dislike: 8 0
MM permalink

August 4, 2009

Thank you.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Jet permalink

August 4, 2009

Via Hoyden About Town.

This is awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Yocheved permalink

August 4, 2009

Children need to be taught from the very beginning that self determination and bodily integrity is not just a moral or religious thing, but a HUMAN RIGHTS thing – and the right education can program in the survival instincts that very well could save her life.

I was raised to be quiet, sweet, cooperative, submissive and respectful. Not bad things to be, in the right place, the right time, the right context. The problem is, no one taught me any OTHER way to be, like empowered, strong, feisty, angry, loud or stubborn. No one taught me how to read context, either. I never told anyone when I was raped, because I’d been taught that if it happened it must somehow be my fault.

This will NOT happen with my daughter. I started teaching her to define her own boundaries before she could even talk. The first baby-sign she learned was “enough”. (boths hands palm out in the “stop” position, and wave back and forth) This was incredibly useful at meal times, but even more useful when we started tickling her. She LOVES being ticked, but like everyone she’d start to get over stimulated. She would sign “enough” and we would stop and take our hands away. Consistently, every. single. time. She learned that she had a way of saying NO that was respected, and that created an incredible bond of trust. To this day, she still loves the Tickle Monster attacks, and still says “enough”.

When she was three, I started teaching her about context, and knowing who to trust. She had a Hello Kitty stuffie that was bigger than she was. I could crouch behind it, holding a candy in the Kitty’s paws, waving it enticingly in the air. I specifically chose her favorite kitty, because anyone can spot a bad guy in a black hat and cape, twirling his mustache and cackling with glee. Bad guys can be men, women, children, rabbis, teachers, strangers or family.

I ask her if she wants candy. She says “No thank you, my mommy gives me candy.” I tell her “Your mommy says it’s OK, it’s kosher candy.” Oooh, this is a hard one. I see it in her eyes. She really wants that candy. She starts to reach for it. I pull back and put the kitty down. I tell her that the answer is “Let me go get my mommy to check the wrapper.” and then RUN to find me. Then comes the hard one.

I crouch behind the kitty, and reach out and grab her wrist. Her eyes get huge, she doesn’t know if this is still a game or not. I tell her to pull back, to yell “NO!”. She wiggles a bit. A weak “no”. It’s so hard for her to yell at a grownup! I pull harder, tell her to yell. This “no” is a bit louder, and I praise her and encourage her to keep it up. “NO!” Good girl! I give her the candy and a big snuggle. That was intense, and I’m proud of her.

A week or so later, we try again. She’s yelling “NO!” now, and yelling for help. Now, she gets to punch and kick the kitty as hard as she wants. She can pinch, scratch, pull fur, and anything else she can think of. She gets more candy and lots more praise. We do this a lot, at least once a week. Her reaction needs to be instant and without hesitation.

As she reaches 4 and 5, I start teaching her Aikido moves. Grabbing the wrist is a classic opening move, and there’s lots of ways to escape. She learns how to grab my thumb and pull it backward. She learns that the instinctive reaction to touching something gross is to drop it, so she learns that if someone puts their hand over her mouth, to lick them like a slimy slug.

All of these survival tips have worked against me when she’s having a temper tantrum and I need to control her. “NO!” Kicking, prying off my grip, running away, even the slimy lick! As annoyed as I get, I still think “Thank G-d”. She’s loud, confident, stubborn, independent, and not afraid to use what she’s been taught. I hope and pray she never has to use these skills on anyone but me, but if she does, she’ll be ready.

Now, she’s 6, and we’re talking about being aware of your surroundings. Where is it safe, why she has to stay with a group of friends, why I won’t let her play in the front yard alone after dark. We have fire drills, earthquake drills, practice calling 911, and knowing how to ask another adult for help

I don’t use words like “stranger” or “bad guy” so much, I prefer to say “people we don’t know” because maybe these people are good, maybe not, we don’t know yet. I don’t want her thinking that she can judge people based on how they look, I want her to learn how to read people’s actions and to go with her gut instincts. Going by looks can blind you to danger. The black guy who’s dressed like a gangster might be the one you run to to save you from the white guy in a suit who tried to lure you into his Mercedes. The nice looking lady might be a mom who’s looking to kidnap a daughter to replace the one that CPS just took away from her.

As she gets older, she’ll get my copy of “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin De Becker. It’s an important book that every young teen, male or female, should read. More importantly, it should be read by every parent who wants to predator-proof their child. She’ll also be reading the blog post I linked above. If I’ve done my job right, she’ll think the post is “old news”.

You are the best! 31 0
Ouyang Dan permalink

August 4, 2009

Powerful.

Thank you.

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Loveandlight permalink

August 4, 2009

Thanks for writing this, reading this was enlightening and educational for me. What I thought about when I read it was why as a homosexual man I do not treat men in the manner that mainstream men are socialized to treat women. I guess the most important reason is that I don’t want to be a creepy jerk (wouldn’t have much business calling myself Loveandlight if I did!) But the social discouragements against my behaving that way are worth thinking about, too. There’s the fact that in many circles, especially in the Midwest where I live, it’s “weird” to be a homosexual man. But the one I mentally noticed is that it’s just *not* okay to subject a young man to that sort of behavior. He’s a man, after all.

Why can’t men just imagine how much they would *hate* it if society were telling them that they should accept being treated in such a dehumanizing and demeaning fashion, and then realize that women deserve the same respect and consideration? When I realize just how lacking that question is in having a good or justifiable answer, I think that I start to understand sexism as a deep social evil.

You are the best! 23 0
Murray permalink

August 4, 2009

> Before I started this blog, I had been following [...]

This was beautifully written; it felt like the distillation of a lot of careful thought. You’re exactly right about having to distinguish between comments, even crap, that should be responded to, and those that are not just a waste of time but, worse, counterproductive.

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SeaKat permalink

August 4, 2009

If you figure this out, I want to know too. I’m already cringing, remembering the freak who would show up on our bus route once or twice a week.

He would makedisgusting comments about women walking past – just under his breath, but his tone was clear – while my daughter and I were within earshot. I gave him evil looks, but never dared confront him directly because (a) he seemed “off” and very angry (b) my then 4-year old was with me and (c) I was pregnant and felt extra vulnerable.

I worry what she’s learned from that. While I still think I made the right choice in regards to direct confrontation, I wish that I had pointed out his behavior to the bus driver. Maybe he would have paid attention and banned the guy from the bus. At the very least it would have shown my daughter that I DON’T think that behavior is OK and that I WILL take actions to stop it. This article and the one on Shapely Prose have made me take a vow to myself to step up, next time. And sadly, I know there will be a next time.

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Catherine McLean permalink

August 5, 2009

This is an excellent essay – thank you for writing it.

I was brought up as a very well-behaved daughter who knew that any refusal to do something or disagreement with my parents had to be able to be justified logically. Emotional reasons did not count, let alone refusals without reasons. This did not do me any favours when I started having relationships, and indeed ended pretty much as you describe above.

I will, however, always have a soft spot for the boy who made it clear that not only could I say no, but I didn’t have to give a reason for it. Saying no was enough.

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erin permalink

August 5, 2009

Also here via Shapely Prose. I’m going to tweet this as well, because this post is amazing and I want everyone to read it.

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Morag Eyrie permalink

August 5, 2009

Just got here from Shapely Prose. Tammy, you’ve just crystallized for me one of the main reasons I quit working in a software company after 2 years (as a product manager). There were many stressors but the main one centred around the kind of dynamic you describe.

Oh, and “bitch can’t ignore me” look. Uhuh. Like another commenter, also had a montage.

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Helen permalink

August 5, 2009

I am in awe. Have only time to skim, as I’m in the middle of cooking, but this is amazing stuff. Wow you can write.

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Heidi permalink

August 5, 2009

Beautiful post. Thank you so much!

If I knew then what I know now. I escaped on time- meaning that there was no rape. But there was unwanted physical/sexual contact that I certainly did not initiate or want- not to mention abuse, stalking, and sexual harassment.

I have been diagnosed with Complex Post-Traumatic Stress disorder as a result of this. It has been 15 years since the trauma, but I am still traumatized and feel like dirty damaged goods.

Thank you again for writing this. People need to be taught to assert their needs and speak up and out loud.

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Lizzie permalink

August 5, 2009

Another of the here-via-SP. Thank you so, so much for this – it helped to clarify to me a whole lot of things, including the way I’m reacting to having been assaulted a few weeks ago, and how and why it happened in spite of me *knowing* that people who won’t listen to my “no” aren’t people I want to be around, and rather more minor things in terms of interactions in my academic life.

Thank you.

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Kim permalink

August 5, 2009

Yes. Yes. Yes.

While I feel I was given a rare education in assertiveness for a woman, and don’t have a problem telling men to leave me the fuck alone, I’m still conditioned the same way. In my private life, at a club, whatever, I can be assertive and protect myself. In a professional setting, however, I find myself obeying all the rules you’ve talked about here. I hate myself for it, but I can’t deal with the negative consequences of breaking the rules. It’s insidious and something we don’t think about or talk about enough. Thank you so much for expressing it and connecting the dots.

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class factotum permalink

August 5, 2009

Yes! I lived in Chile and traveled by myself through Latin America and got a lot of unwanted attention. At first, I tried to use the codes most American men understand, but they were too subtle for an inter-cultural exchange. I finally got to the point where I would say, “Don’t sit here. I don’t want to talk to you.” but it was really hard to say those words. And yes, I got hostile responses, which ticked me off because why should I have to talk to a guy just because he wants to talk to me?

The lessons carried over. I was taking the train to work one morning in Miami. There were two passengers in my coach: a man and me. After the train started, he got up and sat right across from me! I glared at him and said, “There are a million empty seats on this train. Why do you have to sit in this one?” He moved, but made a hostile comment as he left.

Who do these men think they are?

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Monica permalink

August 5, 2009

Extremely well written. Thank you for sharing your experience, it will really help a lot of people… Obviously there are differences between men and women physically and mentally, but the important thing is that we have equal respect for each other as human beings. I was lucky to be raised by parents who treated my brother, sister, and I as equals and taught us to think for ourselves and express our thoughts. Only now do I truly realize how lucky I am to have my family. Human beings are not objects; we have souls. But what will change it all is encouraging people to think for themselves, and not have society and (especially in the U.S.) advertisers tell them how to think and behave. We all desperately need to read more–reading opens our minds and allows us to explore alternative viewpoints, instead of watching television 24/7 which has the sole purpose of selling products (although I do watch television..) We all have to stop worrying what other people think about what we say, act, etc, and do what makes us happy, because face it those people who are your worst critics couldn’t give a damn about you and are in greatest need of serious medication, although they’ll probably never get the help they need because they’re too full of themselves

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Wulfsdottir permalink

August 5, 2009

Here via Cereta on LJ. Thank you for posting this. It’s an insidious problem, and one that needs more discussion and awareness, and your comments about deciding when and when not to respond are spot on. Sometimes I forget and get into it with a troll, and there is definitely a cost.

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SharonC permalink

August 5, 2009

Fabulous post. The early part of it reminded me of something I’ve thought for a long time: there is nowhere in between “stating or refusing something forcefully enough for a man to hear what you say” and “overemotional/overreacting”.

If I say no in a calm voice, it is taken as nothing.
If I say no in a stronger voice, it is taken as “Try harder to persuade me.”
If I shout “NO!”, all of a sudden *I* am the bad person for shouting.

Drives me nuts. If there isn’t some kind of convenient door to escape behind to otherwise convince the recipient of the “no” in a non-negotiable fashion, then there is simply no middle ground.

LISTEN, MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP IGNORING US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Amal El-Mohtar permalink

August 5, 2009

You’re amazing. Thank you.

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Vout permalink

August 5, 2009

Thank you for this.

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Sweet Machine permalink

August 5, 2009

Sorry, I should have warned you! Hopefully we will only send you delightful commenters, and no trolls.

I just discovered your blog this week, but I am bowled over by your powerful writing. Thank you for this post.

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Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 5, 2009

99% delightful so far!

Up until a month ago, my regular readers pretty much amounted to 1) my boyfriend and 2) my mom, so it’s a bit of a shock. But we should all be so lucky to have the shocks I do.

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Bunny permalink

August 5, 2009

God damn. Thank you. Not only for doing this for your daughter, but for putting this out there. I won’t be having kids of my own but, with consent, I fully intend to save your comment for when I become an aunt.

Thank you thank you thank you!

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Ju permalink

August 5, 2009

[...linked here: http://mynxii.livejournal.com/723444.html...]

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kaninchen permalink

August 5, 2009

This is amazing. Thank you.

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permalink

August 5, 2009

Really well done. More concise then you thought you were, actually.

People who think that the brainwashing (because I won’t sugarcoat it, that’s what it is) will just disappear the moment rape starts are blindingly ignorant about human nature, the function of the mind and human behavior.

People who don’t realize the brainwashing is even there, well, I can’t think of a negative enough word expressing an inability to comprehend something truly basic in order to describe that.

Anyways, brillant post. Gonna link it on twitter, if you don’t mind.

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Catherine permalink

August 5, 2009

I just want to say Thank You.

I was recently raped and have been beating on myself for not doing all of the things that I was told not to do. Having someone else outside my head say the things that I’ve been thinking but didn’t know how to express has been very painful, and helpful…

So Thank You.

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cme permalink

August 5, 2009

I also found this through Shapely Prose. Thanks so much for writing this. You’ve really nailed some of the things I have been trying to address with acquaintances of mine since I read, and wrote, and wrote, and wrote about cereta’s post on men and rape culture.

I’d like to link to this essay (based on what you said to commenters above it sounds like that’s okay, but let me know if not).

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Mich permalink

August 5, 2009

You forgot “it’s not OK, to ignore advances” (frigid bitch)
It’s not ok to ignore someone (cold-hearted bitch)
I heard those two in the past month.

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Caitlin permalink

August 5, 2009

This is an astounding post. It says everything I need to say to people about why I *will* be the crazy bitch who tells someone to fuck off if they’re creeping me out, even though you are completely right about the way bystanders — even friends — respond (“WTF?”. This is amazing. God, thank you.

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KD permalink

August 5, 2009

I’m blown away by this, and so glad a friend posted it to Facebook where I would find it. A lot of the comments are making me think back to when my cousin was young–about five–and going through a phase where she didn’t want to kiss anybody. She lived right next door, so we saw her every day, and I remember my dad, and her dad, and other grown-ups (male and female) asking her for hello and good-bye kisses and being refused. And every time they would pretend to moan or cry, or tease her in some way that she must not love them anymore, or that they would withhold some form of affection/reward if she didn’t give them a kiss. I was horrified. I tried so hard to defend her without seeming “alarmist” (yeah, I fell into the same trap now that I think about it). My inner monologue (and sometimes outer) was always stuck on the idea that if we taught her that she doesn’t have the right to say no if she just isn’t into kissing or touching someone at any given time, then how will she know better or be able to defend herself if some pedophile comes at her? I wasn’t even thinking about how it could translate as she grew older. And I never even really got to make the argument in full because the last thing I wanted to deal with was my father and uncle dismissing me or taking offense that I was comparing them to pedophiles (even though I definitely was NOT).

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Coco permalink

August 5, 2009

The way men and women interact on a daily basis is the way they interact when rape occurs…Behavior exists on a continuum. Rape doesn’t inhabit its own little corner of the world, where everything is suddenly all different now. The behavior you accept today is the behavior that becomes rape tomorrow. And you very well might accept it then, too.

Wow. This, exactly.

I’m here via Shapely Prose, and I’ll be back.

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spryte permalink

August 5, 2009

I’m here via Shakesville, and wow…this is really an excellent, excellent piece of writing. Of course, it’s frustrating, in that the subject matter is frustrating…but it needs to be said, and thank you for doing so in such a concise and no-bullshit way.

I think I’ll be spending some time later scouring your archives I have a feeling this isn’t the first time you’ve written something amazing!

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Ann permalink

August 5, 2009

Another person here through Shapely Prose!

I’m so glad I read this essay; you really nailed the subject, as well the complicated feelings surrounding it. Thank you for posting – I needed the validation today, as a woman, as a survivor, as a feminist with a teaspoon. Thank you.

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WordSpinner permalink

August 5, 2009

Thank you for this post. I’m fairly young, but this totally explains why I let this guy harass me in Spanish class the entire year–I was too afraid to speak up. The one time I made a big deal out of it–he had stolen my purse after I didn’t give him attention–the teacher told me he was “just trying to get my attention”. I knew that. I didn’t want his attention. But we’re taught to go along and get along, so I couldn’t stand up for my comfort zone.

The same thing happened at prom. My date was a friend, but he didn’t know how to dance in any way other than too close, but I couldn’t come out and say that the way he danced with me made me uncomfortable, so I just sat through that. It made prom much more unpleasant than it had to be.

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Counsellor A. permalink

August 5, 2009

I can’t help but chime in with “me too” on the female Play Nice conditioning. I went out on a second date with a guy who seemed nerdy and mild-mannered. Somehow he took the information that I wanted to go on a second date as permission to grope my thigh, which he did as soon as I got in his car to go to dinner+movie. And I couldn’t bring myself to tell him to stop doing that! And he WOULD NOT take a hint – I spent the whole evening covering my thigh with my bag, which he would then push aside and continue groping me.

There was no third date. I get a headache just remembering the second one.

Whywhywhy could I not inform him that while I was content to be talking to him again, I was not ready to have him touch my leg, especially in such a casually entitled way? I think the answer has something to do with my being afraid he would start being hostile and I didn’t feel up to his being openly ugly to me. I suffered through the worst date I ever had and went home and told him via email I never wanted to see him again.

So conclusion: it’s a play nice thing but it’s also a fear of retribution thing that women are afraid to assert their boundaries. I have had so many men freak out and start verbally assaulting me in the street simply because I ignored their “hey baby”.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
goldnsilver permalink

August 5, 2009

What you said about your Dad is really fascinating – my Father is like that too, even with my mum. It’s as you say, not sexual, but is however an invadement of space followed by a ‘stop whingeing’.

I always get the ‘lighten up’ thing, so does Mum.

Strangely, this had the opposite effect on me. I’m very much a ‘fuck off’ girl, when someone is in my space because it irritates me so much – this immediate irritation probably comes from being exposed to my Dad constantly.

I’m sure they’d be horrified if I ever told them what I was actually learning, but you can’t spend 18 years telling a girl that she doesn’t have the right to complain about touching she doesn’t like and then send her off to college and expect her to be able to speak up about touching she doesn’t like.

Great quote. Maybe you should let at least your mum know, then you’re Dad. Do you have any other sisters or brothers this might effect?

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Kari permalink

August 5, 2009

Wow, I am so happy that BitchPhd linked to your site today. This article is just, I don’t even know what to say. It’s just so spot-on. Thank you for this!!

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terry_g permalink

August 5, 2009

Linked through M. LeBlanc on BitchPhd. What a terrific article. I’ll be spending the next couple of days reading your archives.
Thank you for being so honest about such a painful subject.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Anon permalink

August 5, 2009

Haven’t finished reading the comments yet, but will. Still, I have a question to ask: Is there any way I can make a donation to you? I can’t find any donations button on the blog, neither can I find a link to contact you personally. So this is out in the open. Your post made me think, a lot, as have a lot of your posts, and I would like to make a contribution.

If you don’t accept donations personally, can you please let me know what organisation you would like supported, so I can send a donation in on your behalf?

Sometimes words aren’t enough, and while a big “Atta girl!” kind of appreciative comment is bubbling inside of me, I’d still like to do something a little more meaningful.

Thanks,

-Anon

Like or Dislike: 1 0
goldnsilver permalink

August 5, 2009

Fantastic post. This concept has been on the back of my mind for some time, especially the ‘crazy eyes’ part – that face that men do.

Sometimes when I go to a bar beforehand I start to plan about how I’ll get out of tricky male situations – eg men that are grabby etc. Should I go for the non-assertive route or the ‘fuck off’ route? But why, oh why, is this even on my mind? Why do men need planning for? It’s sad sad sad.

However, I will leave you with a story to cheer you up.

A little while ago my sister was in a bar. She had to go to the tiolet but noticed that a bullring of men had formed around the tiolet entrance. They would slap the arse or verbally abuse any woman who went in (fucked up, I know). The women it happened to would nervously giggle and go on into the tiolet – they were too scared to do anything about it, scared of being abused more. Her first instinct was to get the situation sorted out by the management, but they were no where to be seen.

She thought about waiting but there were no other tiolets. Because she is a) fat and b) a lesbian, she thought that they wouldn’t be interested in grabbing her arse.

They did so and started laughing in her face. They didn’t realise how strong my sister is. She turned around and pushed the guy over, he hit a table covered in glasses and it collapsed under him. He ended up with a shit load of glass sticking out of his back. His friends were so shocked that they just stood there and stared.

I know it is bad for me to be glorifying an act of violence – even if it was defensive. My silver lining here is that maybe that douche will think twice when he goes to arse grab again – if he even goes for it. The next pretty little flower might snap his fingers off.

Like or Dislike: 13 0
Rosa permalink

August 6, 2009

I don’t know if we can fix it for your daughters but I’m sure trying to fix it for my son.

NO you should not touch her without asking
She said NO now you get a time out
Child, did you ask if she wanted to play with you?

Boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries respect other people’s boundaries.

Like or Dislike: 12 0
Tassia permalink

August 6, 2009

Wonderful post. My mom taught all three of her girls to stand up for what they believed in, but my mom wasn’t there 100% of the time. Society says that women must think and act one way, and it was completely opposite of the way my mom had taught us to act.

I spent much of my childhood and adolescence incredibly confused. My parents applauded my individuality and boundaries, while my teachers and peers treated me as if I was some sort of thorn in their side. When I spoke out against injustices and slights against myself or classmates, I was punished with detention or a trip to the principal’s office. The people I attempted to help were often punished as well, and that made them mad at me.

It was until a traumatic experience I had when I was 15 that I realized what a load of horseshit society’s rules were, and I decided to just stop following them. I am who I am, and if who I am makes someone uncomfortable, then they don’t need to be around me.

Thanks you for posting this, I’ll be sharing it with my friends and family.

Like or Dislike: 6 0
Cathy permalink

August 6, 2009

So true, and so sad. Raising girls to be feminine is equivalent to raising them to be victims. I was raised to be quiet and submissive, not assertive; and to trust other people more than my own gut instincts.

I’m not sure the rules were supposed to keep the rape from happening. They were just to keep the parents feeling that they had a good, obedient little girl who was acceptable to our misogynist society. Nonetheless, it was still a rude awakening to discover that men should not be trusted after all.

Like or Dislike: 4 1
Katsea permalink

August 6, 2009

Thank you, Catherine. Your post describes my experiences exactly. I will never forget the phone call I had with my sister when she said she couldn’t think of “any good [that is, 'logical'] reason why not” when I asked if her then-husband really had her knowledge and consent to have sex with me, his 18-year-old sister-in-law (he was 30-ish), as he claimed. I am so, so grateful that I heard and honored the unhappiness and disgust in her voice, because I was able to use our shared but “illogical” and therefore unspoken creepies about the whole thing to justify and follow through on saying no.

Now I have to go rinse the bile out of my mouth…

Like or Dislike: 2 0
permalink

August 6, 2009

Unfortunately, he’ll probably just use stereotypes to justify separating her from the rest of us as a fluke (probably using the words “militant fat dyke” in his head) and continue treating women who don’t look exactly like her like shit.

I’ve seen it happen before.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
candycornsnake permalink

August 6, 2009

I *love* this post. Thank you for the voice. By luck or grace, I was never raped, but I am that woman, the one who is nice and polite and nonconfratational at all costs.

My boyfriend doesn’t understand why I get so upset when he interrupts me or hijacks a conversation I’ve started. I am tired of being silenced. I am tired of not being heard. And I am hoping, into my 40′s now, that I can change.

I would like to repost this, and/or link or my FB.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
heather permalink

August 6, 2009

I got here via a comment at Tiny Cat Pants, and just wow!

There are things that I never realized I had internalized until you brought it up. My brain is just whirring……

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Anne permalink

August 6, 2009

This passage just struck home to me:
“So, having your ass grabbed at the bus stop, having to go out to dinner with a guy you fucking can’t stand, maybe even having to fuck him once or twice, it’s a small sacrifice to avoid being ostracized, insulted, verbally abused, and possibly physically assaulted.”

I did it all, and felt like I had to, and when I broke up with him it was all for nothing–I was ostracized, verbally abused, and stalked and harassed for years after anyway. The only way I could have avoided the public embarassment would have been to stay and put up with emotional, sexual, and probably eventually physical abuse.

I don’t know that I’ll ever be the same person I was because then. Heck, I don’t know that I’ll ever be the same person I was before college. Because, you see, I didn’t get taught “the rules” until then. At that point my supposed friends (both guys and girls) were the ones that taught me to lower my voice, lower my head, and even after I did they still talked on and on about what a horrible bitch I was. I’m still shocked when I meet people who don’t know them and people say that I’m nice. I’m still shocked when I’m told about how kind and patient I am. I was told, endlessly, by those people and that one guy in particular what a horrible bitch and whore I was. It’s hard for me to believe I’m anything else.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 6, 2009

That’s awfully sweet! I don’t personally need any donations — WordPress is free, and while my time isn’t, this is something I would be doing whether or not anybody was reading it. In the spirit of the posts that are getting attention, I’m sure RAINN could always use donations (www.rainn.org). Or you could locate your local women’s shelter or rape crisis line and offer a donation (probably in your phone book). Or you could volunteer at one of these places as well, which is worth a lot more than money.

One thing that’s just as useful as a donation, I think, is abstaining from spending your money. Sady over at Tiger Beatdown has a post about this.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 6, 2009

Enough people are asking me this that I should probably put up a policy all official-like, but re-post away.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 6, 2009

It took time, patience, and work to learn those horrible rules.

It will take time, patience, and work to unlearn them.

But you can.

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Sandy permalink

August 6, 2009

We need to teach our daughters it isn’t ok…as well as teaching our SONS it isn’t ok…

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Sandy permalink

August 6, 2009

I know how you feel. I have a son and a daughter and I try to always be on their side and never make them do anything they don’t want to…even at the detriment of someone else’s feelings. I also try to call my ILs on some of their behavior around my kids (right now it is about weight issues…but that is another post/comment).

It is hard though since I have been called on numerous occasions over protective and that I need to lighten up or some such shit. Posts like these give me ammunition and reinforce that yes…I am the one in the right and everyone else just needs to deal with it.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
thiskissbelongstome permalink

August 6, 2009

Thank you. I have been trying to articulate this to people for years, and they didn’t get it, but you’ve put it perfectly.

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rowyn permalink

August 6, 2009

*waves*

In a weird way, this makes me feel better about the fact that sometimes I curse and yell when I get angry. I don’t actually think that cursing and yelling is a good thing in 99% of situations that make people (of either gender) angry, because people are strange and quirky and get angry over trivial things like “you forgot to put the leftovers in the fridge” or “you turned on the AC and forgot to close a window”.

… but the ability to curse and yell on those times when it’s NOT trivial is still awfully important. :/

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Alyssa permalink

August 6, 2009

“Raising girls to be feminine means raising them to be victims.”
A-fuckin’-MEN, Sister!!!!!

I only learned to scream and yell and stand up for myself in grad school, when I took a self-defense class. I was 27!
God knows I couldn’t stand up for myself at home, growing up. ‘Cause when I did, I got ripped a new one.
Every. Time.
My son is 8, my daughter is 5 1/2. They both let us know when they’re not happy. And THANK GOD for that!!!!!

Like or Dislike: 3 1
Alyssa permalink

August 6, 2009

Oh, and Harriet, you ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like or Dislike: 1 0
lauraborealis permalink

August 6, 2009

Also here via Shapely Prose and Bitch PhD.

Thank you for this post, it is simply incredible. This is one of the best, most thoughtful, most thought-provoking things I’ve ever read.

You have a wonderful voice, and I look forward to reading much more from you.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
maatnofret permalink

August 6, 2009

This is an excellent post. It’s a bit related to something I’ve been thinking about lately, i.e. bullying in general. “Ignore it and he’ll go away” never, ever works. Fighting back has social costs–why? because, unlike ignoring, it might work.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 6, 2009

That is so eloquently succinct and so dead right on.

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Antelope permalink

August 6, 2009

I think this issue is a really messed up cluster*** because the whole time I was growing up, I saw the social dynamic you describe in your essay being enforced by both guys AND girls.

Guys would often ostracize and bully those who weren’t “real men,” and for whatever reason, girls were positively reinforcing the macho guys by dating them and/or by ostracizing the guys who weren’t “real men”.

It seems like a lot of men are “taught” to be broken emotionally and a lot of women are “taught” that they have to fix them. So then a relationship doesn’t seem right to them unless its co-dependent and difficult.

Like or Dislike: 12 0
Sara permalink

August 6, 2009

okcupid

Pretty much explains every one of those comments right there. You might as well have said “YouTube.”

Like or Dislike: 0 0
infamousqbert permalink

August 6, 2009

thanks for this. linked to it at my blog.
http://infamousqbert.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/mamas-please-let-your-daughters-grow-up-to-be-loud-and-crazy/

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Shona permalink

August 6, 2009

Thank you so much for posting this!

My son is six years old and I’m trying hard to raise him not to think like a “typical” male. I’m also trying to re-create myself as an atypical woman, which is much more difficult.

Thanks for the inspiration, reality check, and well thought out reasoning. I’m going to have to ass you to my rss list!

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 6, 2009

You’re gonna have to what with the who now?

Like or Dislike: 1 0
zolota permalink

August 6, 2009

“By luck or grace, I was never raped [...]”

It’s so fucked up that we have to consider that lucky or otherwise unusual, isn’t it? But that’s how I feel too, “lucky” that I’ve “made it this far” without being raped. My worst experience was when a younger boy in a group started to grab my breast when I was fifteen, and through some fortunate instinct, I reflexively yelled “BACK. OFF.” He and his two friends were so shocked that they just stopped while I kept walking, so I consider myself lucky that nothing worse has happened to me. Regardless, rape and other sexual assault is my greatest fear, to the point that I’ll have nightmares about it, though I always wake up as things start to turn ugly.

Anyways, I thought your comment highlighted something really important, and I wish you luck with your boyfriend and his inability to understand your frustration.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
zolota permalink

August 6, 2009

Thank you so much for writing and posting this. It was painful for me to read and I haven’t even been through the horror of rape personally, but I’m still glad I heard something that needs to be said. I cried twice (once reading the post, once reading the comments) from the seeming hopelessness of it all. At the same time, I also really appreciate the comments, especially the exchanges between Matt and others because I find it easy to become overwhelmed with the cynicism and misogyny of internet trolls, be it on okcupid or Youtube or even comments to newspaper articles.

Before I ramble too much, I also wanted to thank you in particular for your explanation of all the different “bitch” categories women get shuffled into. It made me immediately think of a picture my ex used as his Facebook profile picture, which lead to me finally breaking off contact: just Google “crazy bitch bingo,” or you might recognize the name already. It might be a little off topic from your post, but it reflects the view that anything from a pierced nose to wrist scars to claiming bisexuality means that a woman must be… a crazy bitch. The picture is offensive enough, but the most frustrating thing for me is how this ex, like so many other men and women, doesn’t even understand why people would take this “joke” offense. That’s what makes me despair the most, how some people just don’t (or won’t) understand “what the big deal is.”

Like or Dislike: 5 0
zolota permalink

August 6, 2009

*take this “joke” offensively. [Sorry.]

Like or Dislike: 0 0
runnersdelight permalink

August 6, 2009

This may be the most important thing I have read this year. Or in the last three years. After several unfortunate encounters with men, I have spent a long time beating myself up over not saying or doing what I really wanted to do, and reading this gave me hope that it’s not just me, that there isn’t something wrong only with my brain, but with the system at large.

However, it does not rectify in my mind why I didn’t just say “No,” despite how it would be reacted to. Partly because I have said “No” in the past, and not had it respected of course. But partly, I think that I cannot just blame the system. I am to blame, too.

I am an adult, and have been an adult as these serious violations on my body have happened. I’m in charge of me, and I’m in charge of behaving how I behave, and I’m in charge of knowing that I don’t have to explain my behavior to anyone (as long as I’m not hurting anyone) and I’m in charge of not being hurt if someone thinks I’m crazy or mean or ugly. I should be strong enough to not let these feelings get in the way of my safety, system be damned, right?

I don’t know.
That was the most powerful piece of writing I have read in years. I want to take it and show it to everyone and say, “This is how I have felt in so many situations.”

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Nentuaby permalink

August 6, 2009

I’m not the above poster, but I just left a donation at RAINN of this piece. Thank you for writing it.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Nentuaby permalink

August 6, 2009

Bah, last post should have said “I’m not the above poster, but I just left a donation at RAINN in honor of this piece. Thank you for writing it.”

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Denise permalink

August 6, 2009

Well thought out and well said. Everything about boundaries holds true ten times over and I tried to teach my daughter that over the years.

At 17 she was arduously pursued by a friend of hers, someone who she’d known for 2 years at the time. They spent a lot of time together, the person gave her gifts and did the whole “look at us we’re so alike”. They started dating, the gifts continued…then the clothes swapping, then they stopped hanging around with their other friends. This person called her every 5 minutes and if my daughter wasn’t available there was a subsequent fight. Then my daughter became withdrawn and her grades plummeted. She lost 15 pounds because she stopped eating…and sleeping. Everything revolved around this person. Even trying to talk to her about it made her withdraw even more.

I talked to this person’s parents and they denied that there was even a relationship going on.

Then I found the note from this person (probably left out where I would see it) – threatening suicide if my daughter didn’t have sex. Apologizing for the bite marks and bruises and pushing her farther than she wanted to go. Telling her that the hitting would stop.

I had to intervene or I have no idea what would have happened next.

That was my daughter’s first girlfriend. She spent months in therapy dealing with the abuse, both physical and mental.

Like or Dislike: 7 0
Catherine McLean permalink

August 6, 2009

That is really disturbing… I’m glad you were able to read your sister’s voice so well.

Catherine

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Kristine permalink

August 7, 2009

Thank you for writing this. I’m incredibly lucky in that I’ve never suffered abuse of this variety but I used to always believe that if something did happen, I would always fight back. Reading this article made me reflect upon my past behaviour, especially in dealings with uncomfortable situations, and you know what? Maybe I wouldn’t put up a fight at all. Maybe I would just take it.
I was bullied a lot as an adolescent by neighbourhood boys. They never hurt me physically, the closest they came was spitting gum in my hair, but whenever I went home crying to my parents, I was always told to ignore them. “if you just ignore it, they will stop.” (As a commenter mentioned above, that never works.)
Now that I’ve read this, I realise that is a strategy I have applied to my entire life. Pretend that it doesn’t bother you, pretend you don’t care, don’t fight back.

Thank you, again. You have removed a pretty heavy fog from my brain.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 7, 2009

You’re an adult, which means you have the responsibility to yourself to learn to do better, and to learn from your mistakes and your successes equally.

But learning is a long process full of mistakes and setbacks, and you never have the responsibility of doing it perfect. The only responsibility you really have is to keep yourself safe, and safety is a fluid, imperfect thing in a culture that requires that vulnerability define your gender. The thing I’m trying to say is, don’t be too hard on yourself if you “fail” to speak up. In a perfect world, speaking up every time would be the right decision. But this is an imperfect world, and there are times when “letting” somebody harass you is safer than starting a confrontation, and your continued safety in every encounter is a good barometer for doing it “right.”

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 7, 2009

That’s so awesome, thanks.

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R.P. permalink

August 7, 2009

In some ways I’ve managed to avoid this pitfall of social engineering in our society. Being a trans woman who started transition very recently, I was lucky enough not to be exposed to this sort of garbage as a child.

Unfortunately, the moment people started perceiving me fully as a woman is the moment this complete flip in activity showed up. Suddenly, instead of being an unusually “quiet, and laid back guy”, I’m now “a raging feminazi bitch”. I shit you not, those are real quotes from multiple people. Nothing changed in my behavior. I still had the same boundaries I always did, the same defense of them I always did. But the way society views acceptable behavior for men and women is so radically, insanely different and inconsistent, that my relatively low key boundaries and my admittedly not so great defense of them was suddenly enough to label me a horrible person. Just because I wasn’t a guy.

It had an effect, which sucks. I back down a lot more than I used to and I do let people walk all over me a whole lot more now. So even being aware of it, from intimate personal experience of both sides of this nasty equation still doesn’t make it less difficult to fight. >.<

You are the best! 20 0
Wendy Smith permalink

August 7, 2009

This is a really great post. Thank you so much for sharing.

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Anemone permalink

August 7, 2009

Yocheved, I love the “enough” signal. Really really really love it. But the rest of what you described gave me the heebie jeebies. Aren’t you fear-mongering? Kids need to decide for themselves what they like/dislike, and when they’re too young to know, they need to be protected, not taught self-defense.

Overall a great thread.

Like or Dislike: 2 1
eggplantinspace permalink

August 7, 2009

Thank you first for putting your thoughts out there.

I got to this blog through a friend who linked me. She had gone through a bad experience and felt more comfortable about talking it out following your blog. If for no other reason, this is worthy and good.

As a guy, I have often wondered about how many women are raped. I have yet to have a serious relationship with a woman who hasnt had at least one sexual abuse scare story. It is very obvious to me that it is highly prevelant.

I am not a rapist however, and I have never had occassion to make anyone feel intimidated, be it physically, mentally or sexually. I have never stalked anyone, and have ALWAYS backed down when told to.

I have on MANY occasions tried to chat a girl up in a bar, and been LOUDLY told to “fuck off”, to a chorus of giggles from her friends.

Of course I left, of course I was humiliated, but I didnt react. I said nothing, I would return to my friends having failed embarrassingly, who would tell me she isnt worth it, or you arent good enough for her. Sometimes they would tell me that she is frigid or a lesbian, and we would laugh it off, not because we genuinely believed it, but merely as a defense mechanism for feeling so abusively treated.

Its easy to say just suck it up, but that is the same kind of social engineering you are arguing against.

In the end, all I wanted was a way out. Fine, you dont want to have a drink with me, no problems, but for gods sake, treat me with a little respect, you have no idea of how much courage it takes to walk across a bar and say hello to a girl when she is likely to act like that.

Why can you not just say, “No, thank you”.

By all means scream at the top of your voice if I keep at you, but that first time where we are defining who we are to eachother. You dont need to show me you have the power. I already know that!
I dont ask for power, but I do ask for respect. Because that is the essence our society.

At the heart of respect, at the very soul of our society is reason. You said society tells us its not okay to refuse to explain our actions, Society is right.

It is wrong NOT to explain.

Im not talking a massive treatise everytime you buy a brand of cigarettes, but when other people are involved, respect does make the difference.

Is it so hard to say “No, than you, but you arent my type”, or even “Fuck off, youre the tenth guy to ask me tonight!”, doesnt that tell them and their friends how you feel with clarity and reason.

You are right in so much of what you have said. It is obscene that so much rape is dismissed, and I hope that with new DNA evidence we will find more cases coming to court.

As a group though, we do promote this behaviour, we do still buy mysoganistic rap and country records, how many times have you heard the term about nice guys never getting the girl? You dont think that is based on fact?

We do still go into bars and clubs that do nothing to stop minor sexual abuses such as pinching bottoms.

I have a scottish friend who goes out wearing a kilt all the time. The only reason is because he knows he will recieve sexual abuse from women, he enjoys it. Whilst it is amusing to think of people being so crass, there is clearly there is something to be said about the attire we choose to wear and our expectations therein.

As a group we do little to break those stereotypes, and yet we could insist on it. We could demand more. We could even on the net find a new club that respects the individuals right to be left alone, but we dont.

I am not forgiving the acts that men do, and there is a lot in what you say about how we are engineered. It is clear that submissive behaviour leads to less accusations, and it is crystal clear that rape is still dismissed by people who often think the parties are exaggerating.

The law always moves 30 years behind society. It takes that long for children to become lawyers and judges, politicians and police officers, but it is changing, attitudes are changing and our social structure is much much better than it was even 50 years ago, when rape was hardly reported, and women in many countries still had not got a vote.

I appreciate that my concerns dont feel as important as your issues, but the truth is that if we dont deal with the minor things, if we instead teach that violence and aggression are the only ways to react and protect yourself, then we will live in a world where no ground is given.

I dont want to tell my future girls that the only way to behave is to be aggressive, I want to show them to respect everyone, but also to respect themselves first and foremost, and by all means give them the tools and resources to protect themselves when others have gone too far.

I hope you dont mind me pushing this at least a little in a new direction.

Like or Dislike: 5 10
R.P. permalink

August 7, 2009

:

I don’t think anyone here has counseled to just beat up a guy for saying “hi, you’re cute”. It seems like to me that the consensus is that we need to learn to use force when its needed instead of just pulling back and doing nothing.

I’m also going to ask you a tough question, that you may not have the answer to. Is it the way she’s said it that humiliated you? Or was it the fact that she wasn’t interested in you in the first place? Because I can tell you that my experiences in the social position of a guy (before transition) revealed to me that rejection, even polite, quiet, qualifiers attached rejection is still humiliating to an epic shit ton of guys. It also revealed that this fact was really hard to admit to. (It usually took the drunken philosophical discussions that me and my friends used to get into before I transitioned and they didn’t feel comfortable with that anymore)

I’m also going to raise some tough statements. You might not like them, but they are the truth. In a society where the power structure is built to depower women and empower men, requiring an explanation smacks of making someone’s boundaries a debate. Whether that’s your intention or not, that is how it tends to go down. Girls that explain get questioned. Boundaries that are brought up are attacked. No one has an obligation to explain to you why they don’t want to talk to you. Sure, she could have been more courteous, maybe said, “I don’t want to talk to you.” instead of “fuck off”, but that’s not a power issue. That’s a politeness issue. Both girls and guys can be asses. What you’re asking for is power under a veneer of the label respect. Power to draw out a girl’s mindset and reasoning, her history or her views.

And before you say it, I do understand how much courage it takes to walk across to the bar and speak to a girl who you like. As both a guy and a girl. It really doesn’t change the dynamic in play though. It takes substantially more courage to tell a guy “I don’t want to talk to you” when past experience has shown you’ll get questioned, berated or even assaulted for daring to say no. And really, you may think you’re the least threatening guy in the world. But really nice, very pleasant guys can still look very threatening or worrisome when you’ve had those experiences. So keep that in mind. You’re dealing with people who have been fucked with pretty badly.

You are the best! 20 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 7, 2009

Here’s the thing, man. You’re approaching this as if it were a level playing field. And if it were a level playing field, you’d be absolutely right: everybody should be treated with respect and politeness, and it wouldn’t be so hard to do.

But you, as a man, do not and will never have the experience of never being able to leave your house without being sexually harassed. This happens every day as a woman. Every day. It doesn’t matter what we are wearing, how old or young we are, or what we look like. I have had a van follow me in the dead of winter, dressed from head to toe in shapeless winter wear that showed nothing of my gender. But because my head was uncovered, and my hair was visible, it was apparent I was a female and thus subject to verbal abuse. I don’t have to wear a short skirt to be treated like shit. I can just appear female, and it comes natural.

As soon as we leave our house, somebody — a stranger on the street, on the bus, a coworker, an acquaintance — will feel they have the right to grab us, touch us, move too close to us, call us names, tell us to smile, tell us to look prettier, tell us to get into their car. It is often impossible to judge between the men who do this, to figure out which one is the “nice guy” who just wants to tell us we look pretty today, and which one is the “nice guy” who is going to start calling us an ugly whore when we don’t respond. And either way, none of it is welcome. You do not have the experience of having your physical appearance considered a reasonable subject of public debate when you walk down the street. Whether somebody is calling us pretty or ugly, it doesn’t matter — it is invasive to know that our appearance will be remarked upon verbally no matter how we look, where we walk, or what we do. That is not something men have to experience on a daily basis, but women do, and for no reason other than because we are women.

You’ve expressed a lot of anger toward women who have dismissed you in a shitty way, and that anger seems to have made you generalize that experience towards women, projecting it onto all women, as if we all have a responsibility to be nice to you, because you are nice and don’t deserve to be treated poorly.

Welcome to patriarchy, man. It affects you, too.

What you have described — never knowing whether you’ll get a decent, human, reasonable response, or be treated hurtfully, to the point where you wonder what the living hell is wrong with women and why they can’t just treat you like a human being — is exactly what women experience with men. There are two big differences, though. First, you will never have to live with the fear that a social interaction gone wrong will lead to your physical and sexual assault. And second, you can abstain from ever having one of those painful social interactions. You can leave the house without women approaching you, remarking on your physical attractiveness, and then belittling you. I can’t. I live with the constant knowledge that, whenever I am in public, men will feel they have the right to invade my physical space. Whether or not they do it nicely, or with good intentions, makes zero difference. When you cannot walk to the store for a gallon of milk without somebody calling you a bitch, there is a really big difference between your problems with women and my problems with men. And there is a really big problem with the fact that you can’t see women’s defensiveness as a reasonable reaction, and that stems from the really big problem of you not knowing about or understanding this experience of women. You don’t have the right to have this explained to you. You have the responsibility to ask, but you haven’t; instead, you’ve blamed.

You say you are a nice guy. I’m not going to say you are or you’re not; I don’t know you. But I am going to say that your protestations of being a nice guy reek of privilege. Just because you’re nice doesn’t guarantee you anything. It doesn’t guarantee that other people will be nice to you, that women will like you, that you will get a good job and a happy life. You’re right that there is a big concept out there of the nice guy not getting the girl. It’s a multi-faceted thing, but I’m going to put this to you: a nice guy who expects that because of his niceness women should have sex with him is not actually a nice guy. A nice guy who cannot accept that women get to make their own decisions, even when a nice guy doesn’t like those decisions, is not a nice guy. And a nice guy who blames his suddenly turning shitty on women is not a nice guy.

Men (and all people) have to take responsibility for their own actions, but in this culture, men often foist their behavior onto women. I got mean because she turned me down. I felt I could touch her because she wore a short skirt. I felt I could invade her space because she didn’t say no. I felt I could call her names because she didn’t want to talk to me. You make those decisions, and you make them and still call yourself a nice guy. There is a contradiction there, and you may not see it, but women do, because you are not the only “nice guy” we have ever had to deal with.

It’s not fair that men have to prove that they’re not like all the other shitty assholes out there who feel they’re entitled to women. That’s how patriarchy affects you, too, man, and you only contribute to it every time you insult women for not rejoicing in your company. Women know very well that if they decide not to talk to you, not to dance with you, not to sleep with you, you’re going to turn nasty, because you’re not the first guy to do that to them. And that’s only you proving that you are like all the shitty assholes out there who feel entitled to women. And, here’s another thing, man. This Nice Guy shtick? It’s like you’re asking to get free points for being a regular human being. You don’t get a reward for being a nice guy. You don’t get free pussy just because you abstained from insulting a woman. You’re either a nice guy because you want to be a nice guy, no matter what benefits or problems that nets you, or you’re not a nice guy. Expecting that women are just going to fall all over themselves because you’re performing the minimum requirements for being human is what we call privilege round these parts. Women get to have higher expectations of their men than “not a shithead,” and you should have higher expectations of the women you want to be with.

I’m going to throw this last bit in here: I expect you might get some dogpiling for posting this, or, if you choose to, discussing it with female friends. You’ll probably feel a deep need to get angry or defensive, because it’s going to feel like your sense of yourself as a person is being attacked. And it is, sort of — that is, your sense of yourself is being attacked, but it may turn out that there’s a different self under there that you weren’t sensing, such as a self that doesn’t have to get indignant and resentful and so fucking angry at women who won’t fuck you. That might be a nicer self. That might be a nice guy self. And that doesn’t guarantee you success with women, but it might make you happier, it might make your relationships fuller, it might open up a lot of doors that seemed impassably and unfairly closed. So I recommend, when you get responses like I’m handing you, that you hold off on responding for a week (I’m going to enforce that here by not publishing any comment you make before a week is up). In that week, you can try re-reading women’s comments here, or on other places this has been posted. Read about some of the ways women have been treated, and imagine, if you were them, how you would react the next time any man felt he could approach you in public and demand your attention. Every time you leave the house, imagine one of these stories, imagine it happening to you while you’re walking to the bus stop or the store. And every time you feel yourself thinking, “But this shit isn’t fair! It makes me feel like a bad person, like I can’t do anything right, like I’m constantly under attack and for no good reason…” I recommend you look at the women in your life and wonder if they don’t feel the same way. When you’re angry, when you feel like the world is unfair, you can spout off about it; that’s one nice benefit you’ve got. When women spout off, they get called bitches, and somebody like you comes round to tell us it’s our fault for wearing short skirts and not fucking nice guys.

Imagine if, instead of writing this response to you, instead of engaging with you, I pinched your ass, ruffled your hair, and then told you I was a nice girl and you should come home with me. And if you got pissed at me for dismissing what was obviously a heartfelt and emotional statement you just made, imagine if you saw me walk off to my friends telling them that you were obviously a fag with a tiny dick. And imagine if, after that, you went to talk to a friend about this, and they told you that, sure, that sounds shitty and all, but you were wearing jeans, and you also give off this really angry vibe sometimes, and maybe you need to start being nicer to all women so they don’t call you a faggot with a tiny dick.

You, as a man, can complain about unfair treatment from women without being told you need to be more pleasant and sexually available to the very people who treat you unfairly. I, as a woman, cannot. Exhibit A: you and your response.

I’m sure that feels angering and shitty to hear. But, here’s something: the sense of unfairness and unhappiness and confusion you have? That is a good starting point for understanding how women feel, and talking with them about it.

You are the best! 26 0
faemom permalink

August 7, 2009

I just found this through some one else’s blog. It’s a fascinating post, and I’m going to have to come back and read all the comments here and read your other posts.

You’re so right. When I got into an abusive relationship, I didn’t trust my instincts that told me “this guy is broken.” After it ended, he returned to stalk me, and I remember I decided right then and there if I ever have a daughter I’m going to teach her not to be a nice girl because being a nice girl will make you a victim. Luckily when things started hitting the fan, I got tons of help. The funny part was the only shit I ever got for it was from a few female police officers that I had to deal with “If he left you, why is he stalking you?” Because he’s crazy! None of the men ever questioned me.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Amy permalink

August 7, 2009

Right on grrl!
I personally embrace BITCH.
It’s empowering.
But then again, I’m a survivor of rape.

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Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 7, 2009

I often feel men have this culturally sanctioned role they can go into as “protector of women.” Only certain women get this protection, and only in certain contexts, but that’s a socially-appropriate masculine role that men can play that women don’t necessarily have. I mean, if it’s your daughter or something, you can go into “mama bear” role, but otherwise, women don’t have a socially recognized “protector of women” role, at least not one that isn’t also tainted with a “dyke feminazi sisterhood ha ha ha that is funny to me why don’t we all go watch Beaches and cry a lot” role. Instead, we have a “police the shit out of you so you don’t reflect poorly on me” role, which I expect goes double for women who end up in previously masculine professions where they have to do some extra work to appear not too feminine to do the job.

Not trying to excuse female officers for being jerks to you, just pontificating on WTF was going through their heads.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Eil Hastings permalink

August 7, 2009

Thanks for this beautiful blog post. It hits with the force of frankness that blogs should have vs. overly edited “published” work and it’s super on-point. As a man, I found myself wanting to at least insert a “but” (even as an actively pro-woman dude) BUT you didn’t leave any room. Yes, we are the ones that have to change.

If you’ve never dug “Men Speak Out” anthology at Routledge Press, do. I’ve got a piece in there as do more thoughtful and talented cats than I.

Peace out.

eli

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Meghan permalink

August 8, 2009

I’ve been browsing your blog and this topic couldn’t have come at a better time. I stumbledupon a blog that linked to your “Offensive words” post, and I’ve just been wandering through, la de da.

But yea, this post really kind of helped me lately. I had met a guy at work and he was very flattering. But at some point, he crossed a line, and started creeping me out a lot. He invited me to hang out to drink with his buddies (that I don’t know) late at night, and to me it just screamed trouble. I declined. And then he got angry, and used social norms and behavior as a dangling punishment. He replied, “You know, you’re being very rude. I’m just trying to offer you a good time.” It was as if the idea of being rude is so much worse than protecting myself or at least allowing myself to feel safe.

I then realized that I owed him nothing and that my safety is my ultimate concern. I don’t care how it makes me look. I don’t care if he tells everyone he knows that I’m a huge bitch. I don’t care because I didn’t want his attention, and I wasn’t going to let him force it on me.

And now I’ve just read this post. It really reassured me that I’ve done the better thing by not jeopardizing my safety just to “save face.”

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Rennet permalink

August 8, 2009

Love your post, will return to read your blog regularly.

Wanted to share the following recent event in my life:

I grew up in an urban center, and when I was a teen all of the rampant, public sexual harrassment was just as you say–on-street and on-El groping and much, much worse, often accompanied by crazy, angry “Bitch” tirades. And of course, back when I was young and single and in the bar scene, all of the things mentioned here were regular occurances.

Now, in my mid-30s and married, and living in a small town, I rarely run into the public sexual harrassment (though the workplace “be quiet, you crazy bitch” is all too familiar, mostly because I don’t “hear it” like they hope and am never quiet). Recently, I had to travel to a city for work and was on a bus when I witnessed an older, very very creepy man near me making all kinds of gestures and faces and gross murmurs to a young teenage girl sitting farther back on the bus. This went on for about half an hour. Near me, a mother with a young (5-ish) daughter was obviously being made scared and uncomfortable by this. The teen in the back of the bus was with friends and wasn’t paying much attention, but that didn’t mean she wasn’t potentially in danger–however I was more concerned that the little girl was watching her mother withdraw and get scared and NO NOTHING. Plus, the guy was just grossing me out.

My first instinct was to be scared as well, and then I realized I was a grown woman, not a teen being harrased by some weird drunk dude on the bus. He was right by me so I said “You, stop it, now.” He ignored me and continued, so I said it again, louder. “Or I will tell the driver.” He ignored me. I said, “Stop it now, or I will make you sorry.” And he did. He just stopped. He faced front and stopped making the kissy faces and rubbing his crotch. And got off the bus before the teen girl. (The mother, however, seemed just as scared of my action as she was of the creep, grabbed her little girl close, and shook her head at me.)

I am a rape victim and a vicim of female-to female incest. I know the fear, the utter inability, especially in the moment of being touched, to say no, to kick, or move or resist in any viable way. But I am not a little girl anymore, and no one was holding me down. It might do us well to remember that some men harrass young girls/women because they scare easily. But as grown women, women who are like their mothers? Maybe more of us can raise our voices, take that little risk. (I am not advocating superhero action; I had my cell out for 911, if needed.)

This changed me. I wasn’t a wilting flower before. Now I’m not even a flower…

Like or Dislike: 9 0
Morgan permalink

August 8, 2009

Awesome. Beautifully said. I just bookmarked your blog…bitch.

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Elizabeth Clark permalink

August 8, 2009

I have survived childhood abuse, molestation, rape (Was sold for the night to a man wanting a virgin. I was 14 and my sperm donor needed whiskey money) Domestic violence and rapes as an adult.

My sperm donor molested me the first time when I was 2 1/2 and then as I got older he allowed his drunken cronies to grope me as I lay in my bed.

This blog post made me realize how far I have come, now I make it damn clear that I am not a frightened child anymore, but a grown women who will make a man into a eunch if he lays a hand on me. Never again will I be raped.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Vicki permalink

August 8, 2009

At least twice a week, I tell a ten to twelve year old girl, “You do not need to be polite.” I do it in front of her mother in the context of a physical exam in a physician’s office. I have never had a mother disagree with me; I suspect I never will.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Lynn permalink

August 8, 2009

Amazing post! I do not know how else to say it, thank you so much for this.

As a recent college graduate, I am glad to be out of the undergraduate setting which unfortunately is filled with young women who afraid to be any type of “bitch” you described. I’ve struggled my whole life with feeling different, I’ve been called a “bitch” A LOT. But your piece gave me a new outlook on it, because I was really just resisting social norms. I was/still am saying no, I will not conform. I will be honest, kick and scream and not curtail my life for any man. I’d rather be any of the aforementioned bitches than a passive woman just going along for the ride. It’s sad to say that it’s still hard to try to explain my reasoning to certain friends and family. I will be emailing this piece to them.

Thanks again for this. It’s powerful.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
erin permalink

August 9, 2009

This is an awesome response. I get stumped for what to say when guys say stuff like this to me, because I’m just so blown away with their privilege and wondering how it is that they can’t see it! Now I can just link them here.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Chris Kraynik permalink

August 9, 2009

Thank you for writing this, Harriet Jacobs. (Sorry, I’m not sure what else to call you.) There are definitely some points about rape and gender roles that, being a man, I hadn’t thought to consider… and your writing made these points very clear, hammering them home without making your writing too verbose. I’m glad that I had the time to read this entire post.

I read your “About This Blog” post after reading this, as well… and you’ve impressed me. I’m sorry if that sounds like ass kissing, but it’s simply my truth. It’s good to see that even after you’ve had so many reasons to be angry, you’re focusing on the bigger issues with incredible clarity. Your quality of writing fully deserves the popularity it receives.

When you have the time and feel the desire to continue writing like this in the future, I hope that you will. Best of luck with your home-hunting woes.

Like or Dislike: 2 1
terry_g permalink

August 9, 2009

“By the time we are women, fear is as familiar to us as air; it is our element. We live in it, we inhale it, we exhale it, and most of the time we do not even notice it. Instead of ‘I am afraid,’ we say, ‘I don’t want to,’ or ‘I don’t know how,’ or ‘I can’t.’
Andrea Dworkin

Like or Dislike: 2 0
odalisques permalink

August 9, 2009

I’m sure they’d be horrified if I ever told them what I was actually learning, but you can’t spend 18 years telling a girl that she doesn’t have the right to complain about touching she doesn’t like and then send her off to college and expect her to be able to speak up about touching she doesn’t like.

Oooooh, man, that hit home with me. My father is the same, tho unfortunately his idea of humor when drunk did sometimes include sexualised groping, and even then I got the same admonishment from my mother to not be so sensitive to everything and make a spectacle of myself. …where does this logic come from?

Like or Dislike: 5 0
Sweet Machine permalink

August 9, 2009

eggplantinspace, about the “nice guys” phenomenon, I cannot recommend this article strongly enough.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 9, 2009

Ain’t nothin’ wrong with no ass-kissin’.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Anon permalink

August 9, 2009

Another one on the “nice guy” phenomenon is this one:

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/12/explainer-what-is-nice-guy.html

(sorry, my html is too crap to be confident of getting the link right, like Sweet Machine did…)

P.S. Thank you, Harriet, for responding to me before. I have sent a donation to Rainn in your honour. Unfortunately, I work shift work, and changing shifts, so volunteering anywhere is very tough (as I might be working 5am to 3pm, or I might be working 2pm to midnight, and I don’t know until the Wednesday before). On the plus side, I get good money for being willing to work pathetic hours, so I can at least afford to support things financially when I’m moved, like this piece moved me. Not everyone has that luxury.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Quilly permalink

August 9, 2009

Here via The Hathor Legacy – awesome post.
I don’t remember overtly having been taught these behaviours but of course, I still recognise them in myself. I mean, how could I have avoided all the pressure to not speak up, be a good girl, don’t shout or hit or you’re a crazy bitch. I’m just glad I found feminism this young (I’m 20) and have some hope of undoing just a little of that conditioning before it fucks me over somehow – touch wood.
Will be bookmarking this and browsing the archives.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
terry_g permalink

August 9, 2009

Here’s a link to a spot-on poem by D.A. Clare, entitled:

privilige

http://www.nostatusquo.com/~de/banshee/privilege.html

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Agnès permalink

August 10, 2009

Here via womanist musings.

Great piece.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Quercki permalink

August 10, 2009

I guess she meant “add” you (“s” is next to “d” so it’s an easy typl) to her “rss” list. That means she is putting your blog in her feed reader and she’ll get all the new posts. Obviously, she didn’t rss/feed the comments.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Quercki permalink

August 10, 2009

typo, not typl. See how easy it is the get the letter nearby?

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ashley permalink

August 10, 2009

Also here via SP, and also extremely grateful for the time, energy, and experience you put into this post, as well as the comment thread.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Helena permalink

August 10, 2009

Well, that’s fascinating read.
I’ve been wondering (often) about “why didn’t she fight back”. And then I’ve read the “rules” you listed… I’ve grown up completely refusing them, since… since I can remember, since I was pre-school. And I must say, yes, the reactions were really bad; I’m not surprised that average girl gaves up very soon.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Helena permalink

August 10, 2009

“Why can you not just say, “No, thank you”.”

Because it – usually – does not work. You would accept this answer, so it’s understandable that you cannot see how stupid and relentless can some people be.
Polite “no” -> she’s behaving nicely -> she’s interested -> but she’s saying “no” anyway -> it actually means “not yet, you must try harder”. A better variant is that “trying harder” means “buying more expensive drinks”.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
Will permalink

August 11, 2009

This is a nice article, shouldn’t some of the responsibility for changing this pattern fall upon the shoulders of these women’s mothers? The mothers had to “suffer” through these situations growing up, maybe they could step in and help teach the young girls that its ok to fight back and be vocal etc….

Just my 2ct.

Like or Dislike: 0 9
Terri Windling permalink

August 12, 2009

Here via Salon’s Broadshirt. Thank you for yet another beautifully written and insightful post.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Terri Windling permalink

August 12, 2009

Corrected Comment:

Here via Salon’s Broadsheet. Thank you for yet another beautifully written and insightful post.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
lex permalink

August 12, 2009

Oh man, you’re good. Got here through Queen of Thorns. Was supposed to go to bed an hour and a half ago, but fuck it, sleep is overrated and I was totally enthralled by your post and all the comments.

I have also forwarded this on/ saved it for future reference and I’ll be reading more in the future.

Very much speaks to me of things which I can’t really speak about myself yet. And concisely says those things that I am continuously trying to say to those around me. Not trying to be cryptic, too late for logic.

Cheers. Really.

lex

Like or Dislike: 2 0
lex permalink

August 12, 2009

sorry: *woman, you’re good.
Roll on the Death of the Implied Male Reader..

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Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 12, 2009

Yes and no. The responsibility lies with everybody. Everybody. The responsibility to call out sexist behaviors, and the responsibility to refrain from engaging in them. And between those two, the responsibility to refrain from engaging in sexist behaviors comes before the responsibility to call them out. The question isn’t, “Why didn’t she speak up?” or “Why didn’t her mother teach her different?” The question is, “Why did that asshole think he gets to talk to women that way?”

The responsibility lies with mothers and fathers and extended family and teachers and friends and bystanders and the self. The responsibility lies with the person who interrupts a woman when she’s talking, and it lies with the woman who allows herself to be interrupted, and it lies with the person who watches this happen. All three of those people make that interaction happen. All three are responsible for the fact that it continues as it does.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Shawna permalink

August 13, 2009

Thank you so much for your words. I’m printing and putting them in a file for my son and daughters when age appropriate. I can’t tell you how much I struggle with the boundaries issue and here you’ve given me many reasons to continue to work it out. Having learned none, it’s hard to teach, because I don’t often recognize when they’re crossed. Other times, I was clear they were crossed but didn’t have the voice.

I do have a strong voice now and these words you wrote will be with me.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
eggplantinspace permalink

August 14, 2009

Firstly, thank you for displaying my thoughts, and for your reply. Mature debate is always good. And please believe me when I say that nothing said here has offended me at all. Having said that, thank you Harriet, for choosing to block most of the “dogpiling” that I am sure you had to deal with on my behalf.

I am once again highly praising what I felt was a genuinely interesting, revealing and thoughtful original blog. I totally understand why you felt it is important to write, and I have recommended it to a number of friends of mine for reading. I really do mean that. The fact that you have recieved such a strong response shows how you have touched a nerve.

Now onto my reply. Thank you to Anon and sweet machine for their links.

If I were able to, I really would like to take out the “nice guys dont get the girl” line. Not just because it seems to be the reason for a large amount of the criticism I recieved, but having read the surprising blogs I was directed to, I came to realise that the term “Nice guys”, has been hi-jacked somewhere along the line to mean precisely one of the things you were rallying against in the first place.

It is interesting that in both the blogs (and a few others I found of my own accord) the term “nice guy” ended up being defined. The opened up discussion ended up separating the term “Nice Guy”, meaning someone genuine, respectful etc, and “Nice Guy (TM)”, meaning the kind of person who expects sex, swears at women when they turn them down etc.

I am presuming this has been defined specifically for people like me who was not aware that the term nice guy now meant something totally different.

I can see why the use of this term therefore has caused annoyance, and wholeheartedy wished I had spent a few more seconds before using it. Needless to say I hadnt realised this use, and believed that the term described someone genuinely interested, respectful, polite and decent.

The real reason I regret using it however is that it seems to have heavily overlooked the rest of what was a lengthy reply.

My point in summation, was that aggression should not be the first port of call, our first action… and not just for women, but for everyone.

It is the crux of my issue, and you dealt with it with your opening statement. Yes, I am without doubt approaching this as if it were a level playing field.

I am not suggesting for one minute that it is a level playing field. I am merely saying that to lose sight of our humanity will make us as bad as the people we are fighting against. It is a point made much better by the likes of Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

“I cannot teach you violence, as I do not myself believe in it. I can only teach you not to bow your heads before any one even at the cost of your life.”

“Never succumb to the temptation of bitterness. ”

“Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.”

Malcolm X nails my point exactly with this last quote. That we should teach our young girls self respect, and self defense, that we should show them how to be proud and dignified, and never bow their heads, but we should FIRST and foremost try to treat people with respect.

I say this to Helena specifically, that saying “No, thank you” may never work, but I do believe it is worthy and should not be a forgotten courtesy.

We should also teach our young boys to break their conditioning also, and personally I think discussing what they are listening to, watching and aspiring to be like could be a starting point in our examinations as to what kind of men they will grow up to be.

RP, you are absolutely correct. After all, the issue I am making here is nothing in comparison to the overall problems of rape and our behavioural conditioning, no-one has councelled you beat up a guy for saying “you’re cute”.

So yes, my reply is a little alarmist, but in a discussion that has had so much aggression and heartache throughout, I felt it useful to remind people that we are striving for a better society.
Perhaps my definition is different to others, but my better society is respectful, and decent to everyone regardless of race, sex, sexual orientation or belief.

You ended your reply with the fact that I am dealing with women who have been fucked with pretty badly. This is absolutely right, and it is a tragedy. I think one of the offshoots of this kind of blog is to discuss how we can talk to each other without bringing up these strong emotions.

To anyone that felt genuinely upset at my reply I apologise.

This is Harriet’s blog and she has written very well. Her points are well made, and I dont mean to disparage them.

Harriet, In my opinion, you are right to say them loudly. Im always reminded that its important to have at least two voices shouting from the rooftops claiming either side of a story, so the rest of us can make our minds up in the middle with all the information.

To be honest I am kind of shocked my simple call for respect before aggression got a reaction at all.

I hope this retort helps clarify my position.

Like or Dislike: 3 7
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 14, 2009

I suspect that there’s a lot you and I could still disagree on, big and small, but I am not somebody who’s particularly interested in long back-and-forth debates on details. I find a lot more value in hearing people’s different perspectives and stories, accepting them as the truth for that person, and letting them stay as they are, rather than trying to modify them to fit into your worldview (which is what I feel like the end goal of arguing often is).

So I’m trying to hear your experience, and your emphasis on respect. Again, I feel like we’re would disagree quite a bit if we got into more specifics, but regardless of that, I am seeing you practice what you preach here, and I respect that. My perception of this exchange we had here is that you learned something new about women’s experiences and perspectives, and you learned that those experiences and perspectives lead to a lot of anger. And when I say I think you’re practicing what you preach, it’s because I think you’ve seen that you need to respect that anger as valid, and as coming from a valid place. We could disagree (and I suspect we would) on how we work with and around that anger, but I think acknowledging and graciously accepting that anger and the reasons that it exists is a great first step to take.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
martha coyote permalink

August 15, 2009

I’m 76, and was raised in two small towns in W.Va. I got all the brain-washing, and all from women. They were trying to save me. These were mostly strong women, but they believed in male superiority, and the woman’s role, [as did I, for far too long a time,] and leaned over backwards to play that role. I realized later how much fear there was in that, and how taboo it was to express it, hell, even to think it.

I was an honorary male chauvinist, and was incredibly lucky that my husband was not. {It was a little easier to hear about it, at first, because I had to take his word for it, didn’t I? He was a male.] I still didn’t get how deep it was, until the feminist movement. I am so very grateful to those women. It was also frightening to change, to recognize my anger, and in dangerous territory.

As to nice guys, yes, there are a lot of them, thank heavens, but I remember the Stanford Experiment. A Professor was doing work on prison psychology, and got student volunteers to act as prisoners and guards. This is a frightening, enlightening, now famous experiment, [and I recommend googling for it as 'Stanford prison experiment',] but the saddest thing was that those student ‘guards’ fell into three categories; Bad guy, Following the rules, and Good guy.
Good guys tried to be nice, helpful, maybe bend the rules in the favor of the ‘prisoners’. The experiment began to go bad, to get out of hand, and the ‘guards’ were asked if they thought the experiment should go on. The Good Guys said yes.
I couldn’t understand that. I finally realized that this experiment had made it very easy to be Good Guys, and to congratulate themselves as such, at very little cost. And I am sure they did not recognize it. I see some of this, sometimes, when really nice guys seem so reluctant to change the system, even as they disapprove of it. As I said about me, change is scary.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Cecile permalink

August 15, 2009

Here’s the thing that I picked up…. you wonder why she can’t say “No, thank you” or any variant thereof.

It’s because she’s said it hundreds of times before with no goddamn effect. So you would have been the exception? well that’s just peachy. But she doesn’t know that. A polite “No, thank you” gets insistence, to be bought a drink, to dance, even just to engage in conversation you simply don’t want to engage in. “I have a boyfriend” in my experience has frequently resulted in either “God, what’s your problem? I was just talking to you” or “I don’t mind, I’m not jealous”. Further rebuffs tend to end up with “Well he’s probably cheating on you anyway so you should too”, followed by “stuck-up/mean/frigid bitch”

Like or Dislike: 13 0
Viva permalink

August 15, 2009

(hoping this comment falls in the right place)

To expand a bit on Cecile’s comment of mentioning you are already in a relationship, to some people it’s taken as a challenge. In both “fun and flirty” ways like the already posted “I don’t mind” to “Let’s see about that!” to the should- I- be- calling- the- cops- now “Well, where is he so I can kick his ass?” (looking around all tough like).

This is usually after the first stated “no” or “no, thank you” and being nice and telling them why.

A declined invitation is what it is. It doesn’t mean keep trying until next level and it certainly doesn’t mean battling the Final Boss for the “win”. That’s just freaky and weird.

And like said already by others- we just don’t know what kind of guy you are going to be.

Like or Dislike: 8 0
Sabriel permalink

August 16, 2009

This is a really powerful piece, and I agree with everything you’ve said. I have friends who, while they would say they’ve never been raped, have certainly had sex when they didn’t really want to. Their excuses were often along the lines of ‘but he was my boyfriend, and you can’t say no if you’re in a relationship with them’ or ‘I was at his house already, in his bedroom, so I HAD to have sex with him, didn’t I?’ This makes me really sad.

I identify as asexual, and I’m glad that I have a very strong ability to say no to people at any point, otherwise I can imagine I’d get into a lot of situations I wouldn’t want to be in. I plan on linking friends to this post, and I’m off to read some more of your blog! Thanks.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
shiloh permalink

August 16, 2009

Mothers can only teach their daughters that it’s okay to say “no” to another woman, that it won’t get you punished, which is not often helpful when it comes to sexual assault (not to say women never assault women, but it’s mostly guys doing that kind of abuse). In terms of parents, only fathers can teach their daughters that it’s okay to say “no” to a man without being punished, harassed and abused.

Sure, moms can *tell* their daughters, “Stand up for yourself.” But only fathers can *show* their daughters that they won’t get clobbered for doing it, at least if the guy is decent. I’ve known a lot of fathers who would tell their daughters, “fight for your rights when people put you down/try to abuse you,” but who would then turn around and punish the same girl for not being instantly obedient or for questioning him.

Which lesson do you think daughter takes away? “Fight for your rights” or “don’t trust men to let you assert yourself, they’ll hurt you”?

Like or Dislike: 7 1
margarine permalink

August 21, 2009

this is great stuff. i just wanted to thank you for posting it.

i grew up at the tail end of second wave feminism, aware that i didn’t have to become a Stepford Wife or a wife at all, nor a mother. yet i was steeped in the idea that traditional womanhood was inherently disempowering.

if only i could avoid becoming a compliant girlfriend/wife, and avoid becoming a mom, and strengthen my intellect, my wits, my skills, and my education, i would surely become that woman Helen Reddy was singing about on my parents’ cassette player when i was six years old. hear me roar.

it never occurred to me that i would be raped, that i would become partially disabled and unable to act like a tough guy physically, and that under my argumentative punk rock mask i was still just so bloody disempowered, so invested in compromising, making people feel good, being a sympathetic listener, and not setting good enough boundaries.

being around today’s young girls and teens in situations like Rock n Roll Camp for Girls, i see many improvements… but many of the same problems we inherited from past generations. watching the girls blossom (and yell!) at Rock Camp makes me think, “Wow, I wish we’d had this when i was a kid, teach me to yell and rock and make ‘zines and how to do self defense.” then i realize: the existence of the Camp just shows how little has changed. these kids*have* a camp like that, but they live in a world where they still *need* one… a place where they can be themselves, in all their loud, self expressive, geeky glory.

so what’s the practical solution to any of this? and how do we deal with the reality that sometimes being in a room with a screaming, out of control, yelling, weeping mess of a person—a “shrill bitch” or “hysterical bitch” for example—can be intolerable? should we put up with it in younger girls so we don’t pound the sense of empowerment out of their young selves?

Like or Dislike: 2 0
MetisRebel permalink

August 22, 2009

That is SO true.

Brought back memories all right. Sitting in a club with 3 other women. Some drunken guy walks up to our table and will NOT leave us alone, hitting on us, touching etc. So I jumped up in a karate stance and told him to “F*ck off before I MAKE you f*ck off”. Now the guy freaked out and yelled, “What are you, a dyke?” So I yelled back Alice Walker’s great line, “I AM–if YOU are the alternative!”

Well, the other women freaked out on me. They were more scared that someone in the bar might *think* we were lesbians than they were that this idiot was likely a rapist trying to see who was the easiest target.

We have to *encourage* other women, when they forcefully stand up for themselves publicly. We are the bystanders. We CAN make the difference. I’ve done it–and I’ve seen the results.

I don’t “play nice” with dangerous men and I encourage other women not to, either. If we’re ever going to break that “nice” mold, we have to support each other because too many men see no advantage in it.

Like or Dislike: 7 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 22, 2009

So while reading your comment, I had this little twinge of “karate stance? Isn’t that a little extreme?” And then I was like, “Whoa, man, back up and examine the hell out of that thought.”

Because the thing is, if this dude had attempted to rape any of you, you’d be getting all sorts of, “Well, why didn’t you fight him off?” But since he didn’t try (maybe because you did fight him off), instead you get a lot of, “Why so fighty, Dyke-y McBitch?” It’s not like rapists have an egg timer that goes off when they’re about to rape that lets all the women around them know, “Oh, now it’s okay to start fighting, because now it’s officially rape instead of just harassment. If it was just harassment, I could continue being ineffectively polite!”

You never know which is the drunk dude who’ll back down if you say, “Hey, no thanks,” and which is the drunk dude who’s thinking how best to drag you out to his car. You don’t know these things until they start happening, at which point you’re probably already at a physical disadvantage. And yet there’s somehow something wrong with a woman defining her physical and social boundaries as such that nobody is allowed to put her at a physical disadvantage to begin with, which is what you were doing there. I guess you were just supposed to wait and see if he intended to attack you, and only then would you be allowed (expected, required) to fight back. Everything up to a physical attack you were just supposed to endure.

There’s nothing wrong with refusing to give up your physical safety at the very beginning of every single encounter, and it’s creepy to know how ingrained an idea it is that women should be giving up their physical safety much of the time in public, and that there is something really aggressive and wrong about them if they don’t. Instead we have this situation where women are considered psychotic if they immediately and without reservation enforce their physical boundaries, unless it’s during that two-second interval where it stops being “just” harassment and starts being rape. During that two-second interval, a woman is somehow supposed to A) immediately realize that this is going to become rape (as opposed to maybe “just” a grope or “just” unwanted kissing), and B) immediately fight back aggressively and successfully. Women are not ever supposed to behave aggressively and physically in order to put physical space between them and an attempted rapist unless it’s totally proven that the guy was an attempted rapist, which, of course, doesn’t happen until he’s actually started to rape her. Anything up until the rape still verges on acceptable male behavior. He was just trying to dance with you! He was just trying to kiss you! He was just trying to compliment you! Who cares if you never asked him to do any of those things? He still gets to, and you don’t get to say no! Oh, unless he rapes you, then all the rules are reversed, like, in a split-second.

Like or Dislike: 12 0
Suebob permalink

August 22, 2009

I absolutely disagree with Anemone. Self-defense is an absolutely essential skill for everyone. Hiding your head in the sand is no help. Strong, powerful defense skills make strong, powerful people. I learned to defend myself when I was about 30 and it changed my life. I am much happier and more self-confident now. It is not that I am not afraid anymore. I just feel like I have a much more realistic view of what to be afraid of.

I believe that self-defense should be taught in every phys ed program, especially for young women.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
leah permalink

August 22, 2009

awesome post.

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faemom permalink

August 23, 2009

I’ve been racking my brain trying to figure out how to teach my sons this. I’m sending my eldest to pre-kindergarten next week, and I’m realizing my days of being always there to protect him are numbered. Thank you for posting this. It gave me an idea on how to start teaching him boundries.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Sofia permalink

August 23, 2009

After reading the last paragraph I got goosebumps. A friend had linked to this article on her livejournal and to be honest, at first glance I was too tired for such a heavy topic and going to put reading it off for awhile.
But once I started to read I couldn’t stop, despite every irritating distraction my phone and apartment could throw at me (and they tried hard).
It’s truly eerie, as a woman, not to have examined the so-called ‘small things’ – the soft-spokenness, the social allowances made despite a sense of discomfort, the inherent sense that to be small and prim and tidy is going to keep you safe.
I myself can be fairly nervous, quiet and ill-empowered..it’s shifted in the last few years thankfully, I no longer worry that I’m BREATHING too loudly, but this article has definitely sparked a train of thought.
Thank you…I’ll spread the link to more friends.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
KD permalink

August 23, 2009

I’m in the minority, I think, with this one, but I do believe with eggplantinspace that we can always START with “No, thank you.”

ONCE. The guy gets one chance to be treated like a human being, with common courtesy and civility. Because to do anything else in my mind is like two wrongs trying to make a right. It will never work that way.

If the guy is truly a quote-unquote-good-guy, then that will be enough for him and he’ll go his merry way. If (and we all know how often this is the case) he’s the typical asshole, then on take two it’s every weapon in your arsenal if you so choose, because they should NOT have to be told twice.

But I do think just assuming a guy is an asshole is as bad as any assumptions men makes about us that we abhor. I grant that our experience conditions us in this way, but I’d rather have the conditioning put me on my guard and have me READY to be aggressive, than having me just be outright aggressive to every poor guy who innocently offers to buy me a drink. There are innocent guys out there. There are nice guys out there. Sometimes they approach you in the wrong moment, or the wrong place, or whatever. I don’t think they need to get their heads bitten off for that.

Just as I don’t think an aggressive asshole should be sweetly turned down over and over as he’s grabbing my ass and breathing in my face about “Just one little ol’ drink…”

Meanwhile, I also agree with Yosheved and disagree with Anemone. It’s true we need to protect our children when they are young, but in most situations these days they are not in our care 24-7. Even at very young ages. Once they are verbal (or communicative in any other way) and able to comprehend communication from others, they do need to be taught to defend themselves–even just to speak up and to share concerns with their parents, because in daycare situations, with babysitters, etc. there is never a guarantee that they are safe just because we thought we could trust the people we put them in the care of.

Like or Dislike: 7 1
Lina permalink

August 25, 2009

you put word to the hate. I love you

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Vicky deStephano permalink

August 25, 2009

Its a good article. And I don’t believe that their is ever an end to the fallout of the experience of rape. There isn’t an end to people who will tell you how you should feel about it. Discussing rape seems to give all kinds of people the right to invade your privacy and not investigate any new problems. Having been raped also characterizes a persons sexual behavior of which those in higher places feel that they have the right to say is innappropriate as if there would be an appropriate way to speak about rape or express desire after rape. Then their are those who have never been raped who decided that they know the correct moral treatment for the experience. The idea being that once this has happened sex shouldn’t be desired ever again except in the appropriate heterosexual marital relationship of which it isn’t to be talked about except behind the closed doors of the doctors office. Should one write about it out here online; what is out here online is then what the doctors can bring into their offices. While they are doing a gyn exam and while your trying to determine what creep is in your online communication. It isn’t the creep they look for though its what you have written about the legitimizes yet another grotesque invasion of privacy. And why? well all the colleagues that everyone works with needs to feel comfortible and safe. It is because of the earlier experiences that those nasty insecure beings don’t spend an ounce of energy investigating what you report for some 7 years.

How many ways is there to rape????? York, Pa has the recipe book on this.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
mand permalink

August 27, 2009

Thank you for this.

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Deirdre permalink

August 27, 2009

I saw this post yesterday, and I got to thinking about my own rape 20 years ago.

I was raised by scientist parents who didn’t believe in teaching a lot of that particular communication pattern, and so I was spared the worst of it.

My own rape started out as a innocent but severe intercultural misunderstanding involving how women sometimes negotiate sex in the rapist’s home culture. However, at one point, it crossed the line. As with many of these situations, alcohol was involved, but I was the only person in the situation who’d had nothing to drink.

What’s bothered me about my own rape is that I knew that if I didn’t struggle and didn’t fight back, I’d be physically okay, and if I didn’t, I’d have to go to the hospital. I made a conscious choice.

Later, I talked with another woman who’d taken the other route with the same rapist (also started as the same intercultural misunderstanding) — and indeed had had to go to the hospital.

What bothers me: I knew, and I still don’t know how I knew. I’ve had twenty years to think it over, and I’m still as mystified as the day it happened. It wasn’t statistics, nor training. It was simply that I knew what would happen with that particular person.

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Gail permalink

August 31, 2009

I got this fabulous image of the creep at the bus stop and of the woman being pestered. Instead of screaming or complying she turns to the people there and says in a “demure” and “polite” way…

“Hi. I would like you all to be witnessess so that there can be no misunderstanding.” Turns to creep. “I have no interest in you and I do not want you to talk to me anymore.” Turns back to onlookers. “Everyone clear on the fact that I will never, ever fuck this man? Good.”

At this point the guy is sure to whine that she’s a frigid ice bitch or some such blather, but no one can say she lost it. Not that it matters because a woman like that wouldn’t give a crap what anybody thought anyway.

Then again a guy like that would probably take it as some elaborate come-on.

Like or Dislike: 7 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

August 31, 2009

“You want to bring all these people into it? Kinky.”

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RoyalXanadu permalink

September 1, 2009

This. This with all my heart.

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wilddangerflower permalink

September 1, 2009

very focused, very well thought-out. you epitomized most of the things i was thinking. fantastic.

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foxjacket permalink

September 3, 2009

I totally agree with your last paragraph, and the rest of your post, really, but it almost never pointed out that these daily, normalized interactions that happen everyday are really not that different from what we see played out on a larger scale, like war, genocide, etc. Just like you said, rape doesn’t happen in its own little corner where everything is different now; it was already LIKE that. You’re just seeing a different manifestation of what already existed. Just like Thich Nhat Hanh said, “The roots of war are in the way we live our daily lives.”

Like or Dislike: 2 0
La BellaDonna permalink

September 10, 2009

odalisques: first, I am SO SORRY – both for you, and the other posters who have had to deal with this sh#t. Second: I believe this logic (which is not like our Earth logic) stems from the thought that IF you complain about what is being done to you, then the people who are touching you are, in fact, doing something which merits Complaint. What kinds of things merit complaint? Things That Are Bad merit complaint. What kinds of people do Things That Are Bad? Bad People do Things That Are Bad. You have just told your mother/father/uncle/Santa Claus/whoever, that they are Bad People, and that isn’t how they want to see themselves. You have, at least temporarily, changed how they see themselves and how they think of themselves, and they don’t like it. Even monsters who shoot up gyms manage to contort themselves so that they can think of themselves as Good People (aka “Nice Guys). It astounds me that parents who at least theoretically are teaching their children that their bodies are their own, and other people aren’t supposed to touch them in ways that make them uncomfortable, are perfectly FINE with touching their children in ways that make them uncomfortable. Tickling can often be just as abusive as hitting. If the person being tickled doesn’t like it, DON’T DO IT. If YOU are a person who persists in tickling someone who has asked you to stop, then you are a bully, and you are being abusive.

Yell, people! Make spectacles of yourselves! NOBODY has the right to tell you to what degree you are “allowed” to be sensitive! If someone tickles you, pokes you, touches you in a way you DON’T like and have already asked them to stop, react in a way that stops it being fun for the other person, whether it’s a parent, grandparent, sibling, or significant other: yell, slap, pee on them – whatever it takes to let them know that you AREN’T kidding, and you won’t put up with it any more.

XX [crosses fingers and hopes that a lot of people who are "just kidding around" get slugged tonight]

Like or Dislike: 4 0
martha coyote permalink

September 18, 2009

Found this on the well:

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Helena permalink

September 23, 2009

I want to stay and live here for ever and ever and ever. I get so angry and unable to articulate my feelings when this subject arises. Thank you for expressing all the vague shadows of ideas that haunted me these many years, and providing a place where I can see them so clearly. They aren’t nearly as frightening any more.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
shrines permalink

September 28, 2009

wow. wow wow wow. that really, really hit home with me. i remember my dad tickling me as a kid and him not stopping until i yelled “stop” as loud as i could – and when you’re being tickled that’s a really hard thing to do, you know? i wonder how much of that stuff was responsible for how accommodating and meek i am today…

Like or Dislike: 1 0
martha coyote permalink

September 29, 2009

The girl testified that she left the Jacuzzi and entered a bedroom in Nicholson’s home, where Polanski sat down beside her and kissed the teen, despite her demands that he “keep away.” According to Gailey, Polanski then performed a sex act on her and later “started to have intercourse with me.” At one point, according to Gailey’s testimony, Polanski asked the 13-year-old if she was “on the pill,” and “When did you last have your period?” Polanski then asked her, Gailey recalled, “Would you want me to go in through your back?” before he “put his penis in my butt.” Asked why she did not more forcefully resist Polanski, the teenager told Deputy D.A. Roger Gunson, “Because I was afraid of him.”

“Asked why she did not more forcefully resist Polanski.”

Was he nuts:? She was 13.

Like or Dislike: 6 0
Deirdre Saoirse Moen permalink

September 29, 2009

Speaking of rape culture, WTF is it with Whoopi Goldberg here?

I can’t wrap my head around it, but I’m pissed as hell.

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An anonymous girl permalink

September 30, 2009

Thank you.

As a rape survivor myself, I agree.

And I still feel guilty about not fighting back at the time.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
mythago permalink

October 8, 2009

Oh, and of course once it turns into rape, it’s STILL all your fault because you should have understood presciently that his behavior was leading up to rape (instead of being Acceptable Male Aggression) and so it’s all your fault for not stopping him!

Just call me Dykey McBitch.

Like or Dislike: 6 0
beaq permalink

October 14, 2009

“… this experiment had made it very easy to be Good Guys, and to congratulate themselves as such, at very little cost.”

That is a very, very good point.

I occasionally indulge myself in the wickedness of thinking it would be OK if men’s and women’s places were reversed, even if it meant the men I loved would suffer. Because wouldn’t it be great to be the one mentoring men, and protecting them from being abused, and assuring them that they are strong and smart, and never raping or insulting them, and doing most of my share of the housework?

Which isn’t entirely fair. But still.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Becker permalink

October 25, 2009

I read this piece and most of its comments yesterday morning. Then I went out and about for the day.

I have an aunt who is mentally disabled, and part of that disability is that the part of her brain that processes social boundaries/cues just doesn’t work much. She is also a grabby hugger — as are most in our family. I do not like being hugged by my family in general, but this aunt is particular bad, as it is more gropping than hugging. Often, she even grabs my breasts or near my neck.

My family tells me I am not allowed to say no to her, because it’s “rude” of me and “it’s not her fault because she doesn’t understand.”

Yesterday, after reading this piece, I saw my aunt walking towards my bus stop and knew immediately that she was planning to take the same bus as me.

I had a split second to avoid being publically groped — she hasn’t seen me yet — I can still run — I can go where I want, I don’t want to run — but if I stay, she’ll grab me — I could say no — it would be such a seen — she would ask my mother why I was so mean to her — I’d get in trouble — people are unpredictable if they’re made at me — SIGH.

I turn and run, ducking behind parked cars, nearly colliding with a baffled police office, and make it into a store. Hey look, that section of the store has stuff that matches the colour of my clothes — I can go stay there till I’m sure she’s gone, I’ll be less obvious to spot if she peeks in the door.

So I waited there, 45 minutes, until I was certain the bus she would take had come and gone.

All that, to avoid being publically gropped by a family member against my will. I am a grown adult, and I had to hide.

And when I finally got to my turn to take the bus, I remembered reading this piece three hours earlier. And I thought to myself, “My god. That is exactly how I got to this point.”

I didn’t have to run and hide to protect myself, but the alternative is so much more unpleasant. Because, if I stick up for myself, I am That Unlovable Bitch No One Can Touch.

It doesn’t at all matter that I very much like being touched, when I’ve given my consent to it.

Like or Dislike: 8 0
Nndaia permalink

November 13, 2009

This is one of the best articles I have ever read on any social topic. You have a real way with words.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Niki permalink

November 17, 2009

Really amazing piece…I want everyone I know to read this.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Sofia permalink

November 27, 2009

oh my god, this response is just so concisely and intelligently put that it leaves me speechless. being another woman who has tried to make myself as unattractive as posible, never wearing makeup, wearing my glasses, showing next to no bare skin and substituting baggier pants for skirts and STILL being called beautiful, horny, sexy, a whore, pretty, a bitch – of course reinforced with “ugly”, “unloved” and “disgusting” when i haven’t responded – just going to the grocery store, this articulated so much of the sheer hopelessness that leaving the house can entail.
i get so mad when i hear all of this “nice guy” stuff – just because some guy hasn’t yet taken the opportunity to smack my pussy as i pass like so many others certainly doesn’t mean that he passes the minimum requirements for me to be socially, romantically and/or sexually interested in him. self-entitlement and the lack of perspective that leads to it is NOT attractive. add this to the fact that the purportedly nice guys often don’t actually base their own interest level in a girl solely on how many good deeds she’s done lately, and the argument becomes even more absurd.
thank you so much for posting.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

December 2, 2009

V,

Thanks for the comment, and the link. For future reference, my email is jacobs.harriet at gmail.

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belledame222 permalink

December 6, 2009

Belatedly, this is a fucking brilliant post.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Sunshine permalink

December 6, 2009

I was taught by TV that if a woman was the tiniest bit assertive, she would be:

1. SEVERELY punished (starting off with a brutal slap across the face that would knock her to the ground, and escalating to anything and everything including rape and murder)

2. Not be listened to, because she is a woman and therefore physically weaker and unarmed in the face of her attackers (who are always multiple, big, strong, male, and heavily armed).

I get around things because I am past the age where I am likely to get hit on constantly (I’m 35) and I’m overweight. I also learned at an early age to say loudly, “I have a boyfriend!” to fend off male attention, which always works.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Allie permalink

December 6, 2009

Wonderful. You have put together thoughts and words and truth .

For me the power to be a crazy , mean, shrill etc…bitch didn’t come until I was a mother but now it’s not just for my child it’s for me as well. Too late for somethings but hopefully the example will serve my children and they will learn the lesson much much sooner.

Thank you for this awesome post!

Like or Dislike: 1 0
V.E. permalink

December 6, 2009

Thank you so much for posting this. It made me cry, realising I was brought up this way. Unlearning it is the hardest thing I’ve ever tried to do.

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beccabei permalink

December 6, 2009

This is a post I’m gonna be directing people to for a long time. You’ve summed up so many things I couldn’t articulate. In a peek at the comments though, the thing that resonated most for me was this:

“I know one of my major triggers is getting into a massive angry mindloop, where all I want to do is tear somebody down to little bitty pieces and explain why they’re wrong and I’m right forever. When I get into that space, it’s a really bad time for me, it sucks all the joy out of my life, and the only thing I focus on anymore is this person I really hate, which is so counter-productive (I hate you, please become a larger part of my life). That’s not safe. I can’t function like that. So I don’t engage when I feel that kind of interaction coming on, while refusing to explain my non-engagement, because my purpose of existence is not to bring education and enlightenment to all who demand it of me right now.”

Like… that “must-win-at-all-costs” mindset is exactly what I get into when I feel passionately about something (like feminism), and I love that you have such a zen way of dealing with it by just not engaging ^_^. I’m getting better at managing that myself, but it’s hard.

Sorry I know that’s kinda personal for a first-time comment. Love your blog! *embarrassed*

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Stephen Brewer permalink

December 6, 2009

Superb essay.

You not only uncover a very ‘slippery’ idea, and reveal it to be simply a symptom of how we all operate each day, but make it clear and obvious to anyone reading with an ounce of perspective.

Glad you mentioned the male side of it too: as a boy growing up and receiving all the same messages you mention, it was hard, and took a lot of self analysis to realise how conflicting my own conscious desire to treat women equally, and to want to fit into our society as a ‘man’ were.

We need to change our society, and your little essay will help to remind me of that.

Thanks.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
mand permalink

December 7, 2009

Wisely, wisely explained, Beccabei! That angry, must-win feeling is so familiar to me. It seems to come, usually, after i’ve been down the reasonable-explaining route and the patient-allowing-time-for-seachange-in-thinking part… When communication doesn’t work, and assuming we’re all working towards the same goal (= coexisting peacefully) doesn’t work, it’s difficult to do anything but attack.

Which i suppose is part of why people have anger management issues. I just wish the other side would sometimes strive as hard as i do to see what’s going into my occasional (they are only occasional, honest!) outbursts.

Oops, i got personal too. ;0)

You know, Harriet, this post ‘about rape’ is about FAR more than rape. But you knew that.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
sui permalink

December 7, 2009

amazing post.

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Anais Nin permalink

December 8, 2009

I clicked this link from Facebook where a friend had posted it. I’m so glad I did. This makes me feel a lot better about some things that have happened to me. I think I’ll email this link to my best friend too.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Ember permalink

December 10, 2009

Never having been raped (blessedly), I read this with the “you are so right, I’m thinking about this and yeah” reaction until I got to this:

“It’s a source of constant confusion, as soon as you start budding breasts, that the man who just a moment ago told you how pretty you are is now calling you a stupid ugly whore, all because you didn’t get in his car.”

And then it went from theory to practice, and I thought “fuck, yes, that’s exactly what it’s like. Gods, I’m so glad that’s the worst I ever got, when so many of my friends got so much worse!”

But then I’ve always been the socially inept one who keeps getting punished over and over for NOT shutting up, being meek, polite, or flirting when I was supposed to. I keep thoughtlessly saying “Don’t touch me” and looking at people like they’re aliens if they want my attention and I don’t like them. And I know I’ve offended plenty of peaceful, good men with this behavior, and I’ve felt quite guilty for it over the years, that I can’t find the right level for having boundaries without hurting people.

I’m still working on it, there’s got to be a happy medium somewhere.

But this post has me realizing that maybe the cultural end needs to change more than I’ve realized for that happy medium to exist.

–Ember–

Like or Dislike: 6 0
Dion permalink

January 11, 2010

So then if we understand part of the problem is how the female child is raised to interact with men, shouldn’t we be focusing on changing that?

Like or Dislike: 1 4
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

January 11, 2010

Yes. I think we are.

But that’s not the only part of the problem, and not the only solution. And, taken in isolation, it’s not any kind of solution at all. We should also focus on changing the way other people — all other people — accept those interactions as normal and appropriate. It’s not just the problem of the female child acting in a certain trained way; it’s also the problem of bystanders who reinforce that behavior by accepting it, encouraging it, and ultimately rewarding it.

The female child didn’t get raised that way in a vacuum. For each woman backing down and speaking too softly and passively in an argument due to gendered training, there’s a man pushing her argument down and speaking too loudly and aggressively due to his own gendered training, and there’s a whole circle of men and women watching and saying nothing. Changing the behavior of only women or only men does not create a solution. Changing the behavior of men and women and the expectations and rewarding behavior of all people who witness these interactions and view them as appropriate (or the fault of only one party or another) does create a solution, because it addresses every aspect of the problem instead of only one.

What I’m saying is, don’t focus on the female child, unless you are the female child and looking to change your own behavior. Focus on yourself, and whatever you’re doing to contribute to the problem. I’ll pitch a starting point for you: you’re actively contributing to this problem by focusing on the female child as the main problem and solution. A woman can change her beheavior, and start acting more assertively, but it doesn’t do anything for her (or anybody) if her assertiveness is punished aggressively. Changing the behavior of women is not, and never has been, a solution. In fact, focusing solely on the behavior of women is, and always has been, the problem. There is a structure, and reasons, why women behave the way they do. We don’t get to create a society that punishes women for behaving assertively, then tell women that assertive behavior is the only way to change that society, and if they don’t get assertive, well, we tried. Changing that structure, changing the reasons men and women identify this behavior as acceptable and desirable is, and always has been, the solution. Until women are no longer socially and sometimes physically punished for behaving assertively and with autonomy, the problem will not be solved. So we must focus on changing the reasons women are socially and physically punished for behaving assertively, or they have no goddamned reason in all the world to change their behavior.

Like or Dislike: 11 0
Gary L. Francione permalink

January 24, 2010

Dear Ms. Jacobs:

This is an excellent essay. I am going to have my students in my criminal law class read it when we get to rape.

Gary L. Francione
Professor, Rutgers University School of Law

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Harriet Jacobs permalink*

January 24, 2010

Dear Mr. Francione,

That is too awesome.

Harriet Jacobs

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Jonina permalink

January 25, 2010

Well said and thanks for saying it!!

Jonina

Like or Dislike: 0 0
permalink

January 25, 2010

Hi Harriet, Fantastic essay. Found it on Twitter posted by Prof. Gary L Francione (Rutgers uni, NJ ). He said it was the best essay about rape (and other issues) that he has read. If you are not familiar with Prof. Francione’s work – It’s excellent – http://www.abolitionistapproach.com

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Dechant permalink

March 8, 2010

“You could follow the rules. You could flirt back a little, look meek, not talk, not move away. You might have to put up with a lot more talking, you might have to put up with him trying to ask you out to lunch every day, you might even have to go out to lunch with him. You might have to deal with him copping a feel. But he won’t turn violent on you, and neither will the spectators who have watched him browbeat you into a frightened and flirtatious corner.”

This part resonated so loudly for me.

Those rules were so deeply ingrained in me that I let him into my personal space. How he got a hold of my hand is a blur, and then he was touching my leg. I only wanted to go upstairs to get away from the noise on the ground floor of the café; I guess he misinterpreted that direly. He tried to get me to break the promise I’d made to my boyfriend (we’re poly), which I did not, but my confusion over what happened on that date broke some trust between us.

Some part of me was aware that guys are Like That, because I had my dad come along with me to meet this dirtbag. When my phone rang from just downstairs, I woke up and got out.

Now I am far more fully aware, and though it hurts, next time, I will be able to say, “I’m going home. Have a nice life.”

(I hope.)

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Emi permalink

March 9, 2010

I’ve known a lot of fathers who would tell their daughters, “fight for your rights when people put you down/try to abuse you,” but who would then turn around and punish the same girl for not being instantly obedient or for questioning him.

AMEN! You have just described my father in a nutshell.

One of the most amazing moments of my life was when I had my crotch grabbed while walking home alone from working late. I was able to scream abuse at and physically fight off my attacker.

I was astounded that I had been able to actually fight back as part of me had always assumed that I would just go limp and submit in spite of having had self-defence lessons as a teenager. I was deeply afraid that I didn’t have the emotional strength to fight if I needed to.

One of the most important lessons I have learned in my life was how to be cold and rude to sleazy men and not care what they thought of me. I can do it to strangers; colleagues and men I know are much harder.

I am polite but VERY brisk and chilly as an initial response. Think busy matron at A&E being asked when someone’s trivial problem will be seen to.

If any man is rude enough to persist I let them have it straight away before they ruin my night. My best tactic is to say “Take this personally…” and follow up with a strong personal insult. I’ve found that “you have bad breath/body odour” is particularly effective and may even lead them to go home and leave all the other women nearby in peace.

It’s not fair, neither is the abuse I took from many and various men before I developed this strategy. They have one chance only to go quietly.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Emi permalink

March 9, 2010

Oh also I want to thank you for taking a hard line policy on negative comments. I have seen far too many threads like this degenerate into nothing because of one little troll early on. I have stayed and read all the comments which I never do on feminist blogs because they are so often derailed by one vile little creep at the beginning.

Another aside, I don’t agree with Hugo Schwyzer about everything (I cannot reconcile Christianity with feminism for example) but I love these two articles of his:

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2006/05/25/words-are-not-fists-some-thoughts-on-how-men-work-to-defuse-feminist-anger/

http://hugoschwyzer.net/2009/10/15/of-schrodingers-rapist-zenos-paradox-and-the-problem-of-trying-to-prove-a-negative/

He writes very well about men having good intentions towards women and how good those intentions actually are and what behaviour they should, can and do lead to.

Like or Dislike: 0 0
Aja permalink

March 14, 2010

Since I am referencing this post extensively in a post I made this morning on Young Adult fiction and rape culture, I figured I owe it to you to come tell you how much it’s influenced me since I read it for the first time 2 months ago. I just want to say thank you for putting this post out there and articulating so succinctly and powerfully so many things that affect women every day without our even realizing it.

(Also, Harriet Jacobs is one of my heroes, too. <3)

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Yoiyami permalink

March 15, 2010

I am here via Aja at LJ, and I have to say thank you for writing this.

As a cosplayer (someone who dresses up as a particular fictional character), I have had trouble because of the attitude you have described. The character I cosplay is busty (Orihime from the anime Bleach) and despite the fact that my outfits cover my breasts entirely, because the shirt was form fitting I was told that I was asking for it when someone was taking pictures down my shirt and would not leave the area until security was called. (I work in the dealers room and am thus confined to a very small space.) And this was from a police office when I was talking about the incident a year or so later!

I spent my childhood always wearing very big and tent-like clothing, and now get made fun of for not being very fashionable because my clothing is not tight and still a bit figure obscuring. It’s a constant battle in my head, to be constantly pressured to wear nicer clothing but then told it’s my fault when I get attention that I don’t want.

Where is the space between wanting to feel pretty and not wanting attention from others? Thank you, for telling me that my feelings are important, that I have a right to feel uncomfortable with how people are viewing me, that I’m not making things up. And thank you for pointing out where these feelings are coming from. I still don’t know what to do, but at least I have a starting point beyond ‘I am uncomfortable wearing clothing that is comfortable’.

Like or Dislike: 5 0
Redheaded Stepchild permalink

March 16, 2010

Holy shit, this is amazing. I am about five million years late to this, but I wanted to let you know that I read it and it hit deep. Thank you.

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mand permalink

March 16, 2010

90% of everything is crap, you know, and that includes humans. Sadly. Just duck, and keep your eyes open for the other 10%.

I am shocked, actually, reading those comments and i’d have felt worse if they’d been directed at me. But still, these are the losers we need to ignore as the others here have said.

This essay is long, and contains subtle ideas – silly to expect everyone or even the majority to follow all of it, especially those who have no vested interest in agreeing with it. Definitely not a reason to stop saying what you know is true and good.

Let’s just hope most of those idiots are about 13 and will become thinking people by the time they reach adulthood. This post may even be the first thing that jolts them out of their received attitudes.

And let’s hope someone (perhaps put off commenting by those others) read your post and this one, and gained comfort or strength or wisdom (or all three) from it. If just one has got that from it, it was worth all the crap.

As for OKCupid, i’ve heard opposing views. I’d guess that the unwary looking for dates will find the nasties, but by being selective – and good at rejecting (a learned skill)! – it’s more than possible to find those in tune with yourself.

Like or Dislike: 0 3
mand permalink

March 16, 2010

Yoiyami, i can identify; i had breast reduction surgery a couple of years ago for that kind of reason. A small practical tip (to anyone, especially if i’ve misread n you don’t need this advice!): a low neckline is actually more ‘reducing’ than a high one. It divides the area below the throat (ideal i suppose is halfway down the area as you view it), rather than one big expanse of fabric starting from a high neck, which may feel as if it’s concealing but in fact can emphasise the size of that expanse. The other tip i’ve only recently discovered is that the empire line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_line) often works best – the secret being to draw most attention to the narrowest part of the figure.

Hope this helps someone. :0) Having lived for many more than two decades miserable and self-conscious about my shape, i don’t want to give the impression that i’m patronising or sneering, simply offering an idea.

Like or Dislike: 0 2
Jessa permalink

March 21, 2010

Thank you for this. I was harassed at the bus stop the other day as well as on the bus for at least 30 minutes, and no one did anything to help me, even blaming me for the guy getting off at the wrong stop because I didn’t want him to get off at the same stop as me and didn’t warn him that he was getting off the bus a stop early. It was frustrating, scary and a little humiliating. I’m so glad there are people like you talking about this!

Like or Dislike: 5 0
Erica permalink

March 22, 2010

I also strongly disagree with Anemone. I see little 5 year old *boys* in the kids class at my Kung-Fu club all the time. No one *ever* calls that fearmongering. Why is it fearmongering when it’s a little girl?

They only way you’ll traumatize you’re child is if you use pain/fear to impart lessons. Even if you’re teaching the child what to do when they are afraid, as long as they feel safe while the lessons take place, they will continue to feel safe and protected by their parents.

And teaching kids self-defense *is* protecting them.

Though I will say that seeing as the world is experiencing an epidemic of obesity, perhaps candy is not the best reward for a lesson well learned.

Like or Dislike: 8 1
Erica permalink

March 22, 2010

My friend just linked me to this, and my response: Yes! So much yes!

The culture of misogyny is so entrenched people don’t realize they’re doing it. Even when people are trying to raise their sons to be respectful to women, they often do it in ways that reinforce these ideas.

We tell little boys not to hit girls when we should be telling them not to hit *people.* Unacceptable behavior is unacceptable to everyone. Specifying that certain behaviors are acceptable or unacceptable particularly to women reinforces the idea that women are “other,” “different,” and ultimately “less.”

Teaching boys that women are to be treasured also teaches boys that women are treasure, something to be prized and owned.

And then you get men who compliment you or offer to carry your groceries with an obvious leer in their voices and get offended when you tell them to back off because they were “only trying to be nice/chivalrous.”

Like or Dislike: 6 0
Harriet Jacobs permalink*

March 22, 2010

I haven’t made this explicit so far, because it hasn’t really come up, so I’m going to take the time to say this now. Because this blog falls under general feminist principles, it’s also a fat acceptance space. I’m uncomfortable with what you said at the end there — not enough to delete your comment, but enough to mention the fat acceptance, and enough to say that I’d be more comfortable if you read some fat acceptance blogs before you talk about obesity here again.

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Amy permalink

March 25, 2010

I am so glad my father told me to ignore all those rules my mother tried to teach me. Thanks to him, I have no trouble being any of the ‘bitches’ that I get called when I shoot someone down like a lead balloon.

Like or Dislike: 1 0
Astrid_H permalink

March 27, 2010

I… Wow. This post was intense. Thank you for some new and thought-provoking insights.

(here via buggirl)

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zygote permalink

March 29, 2010

Totally agree. Have just found this blog and it says everything I’ve been thinking but haven’t found the words for.

I don’t know if the blog has touched on it (I haven’t read very far yet) but to me the biggest thing that has helped me understand womens reaction to rape, is that women want to blame the victim because it means in their own head that they can somehow avoid doing what the victim did. Every woman is terrified of being raped, and it makes it easier to go about your daily life if you can somehow say to yourself it won’t happen to you because you don’t dress like that, or you don’t get that drunk, or you wouldn’t go out with someone like that….

Understanding this has made a huge difference to me. Before I was confused an angry at what seemed like a total lack of female solidarity on the issue.

Thank you for writing Harriet. I look forward to reading further.

Like or Dislike: 6 0
mand permalink

March 30, 2010

Zygote – ‘women want to blame the victim because it means in their own head that they can somehow avoid doing what the victim did’ – makes complete sense.

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rosy permalink

April 12, 2010

Consent is not just about saying no.

Like or Dislike: 3 0
Avinia permalink

April 14, 2010

I know this is several months late, and R.P. said certain parts better, but however:

You’re not entitled to anything just because you’re attracted to her.

You’re not entitled to an explanation for why she’s not interested in you. You’re not entitled to her time, her energy, her interrupting whatever she’s doing to prolong an encounter she didn’t want in the first place.

She does not owe you information about herself. Being curious doesn’t entitle you to anything. Her reasons may be personal, and she doesn’t owe it to you to salve your ego by explaining how it’s not you, it’s her.

(Others have explained how men will quite often see an explanation as an opening, an opportunity to try to convince her that, no, really, she should be interested, give him a chance. She doesn’t owe you an opening. She doesn’t have a moral imperative–and yes, you did say, “It is wrong NOT to explain”–to give you an opportunity. And this isn’t about whether you, personally, would or would not push the boundary she has set if she did explain; it’s whether that’s likely to happen in general. She has a right to set boundaries unequivocally, yes, even aggressively, in an effort to minimize that type of behavior. She has a right not to give you special treatment–and really, there’s no reason for her to do so.)

Oh, hey, and there’s another possibility. Maybe she’s getting a creep vibe from you, or something like that. Do you still want to hear the explanation you think is so necessary? Or do you now think that politeness/respect demands that she lie? If that’s too insulting, imagine she’s getting hit on by some other dude, who’s giving off a creepy vibe, or she just finds him terribly unattractive, or whatever.

Another thing: no, every action does NOT require an explanation, no, not even if you really want to know, just NO. A woman rejecting your advances doesn’t need to explain her actions, because there’s nothing wrong with her actions.

Saying that something requires an explanation implies that there are some circumstances where it’s not okay to do that thing, so the person’s reasons need to be held up and examined so that others can determine whether it was, in fact, okay.

But in fact it’s okay for a woman to reject your advances for whatever reason suits her; there are no circumstances in which she is morally obligated to be interested in you. Her reasons are not up for debate.

You are the best! 20 0
Ember permalink

April 24, 2010

Ok, I’m reading a lot of these comments and the original post, and all of them are a minimum of interesting and insightful, and most of them give me serious food for thought.

But this particular comment about the Mama Bear, Women-Protecting-Women, and Women-Policing-Women rules clarifies SO MANY things I’ve wrestled with for a long part of my life.

THANK YOU!

–Ember–

Like or Dislike: 2 0
Suz permalink

May 13, 2010

A friend posted this on her facebook wall a few weeks ago, and since then, I’ve read every single entry in this blog. I probably should have devoted more of that time to doing my class readings and writing papers, but I think it’s been time well-spent, as I’ve learned much more important things from Fugitivus than from -The Knight of the Burning Pestle-.

Anyway, I wanted to comment, and I figured this might be the appropriate place, as it was the one that introduced me to all the rest of the mind-blowing content. I have very little new to say, just the same old a) Harriet, you’re amazing; and b) THANK YOU HARRIET.

I’ve lived an incredibly privileged and sheltered life, as an upper-class white girl with an almost-unbelievably stable family and social network, great education, etc. I’ve always recognized that, but I never really knew how to deal with it: how to understand issues like abuse and rape, racism, etc. from a position of privilege. I had vague ideas about feminism and anti-racism, but this blog has opened my eyes to how deep these problems go, and how much I need to struggle with my own actions and attitudes. I’ve been undergoing a lot of profound transformation in my worldviews the last two years since I left home for college, and Fugitivus has contributed so much. My way of thinking has been radically changed for the better, so THANK YOU.

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Harriet J permalink*

May 14, 2010

@Suz: Thanks! That’s always nice.

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Kelsi permalink

June 5, 2010

This entry brought tears to my eyes. I have been lucky in that I have not experienced rape or abuse, but there were several times when I was younger when men vastly overstepped the boundaries I had set and made me feel both physically and sexually threatened. And at the time, I did blame myself–after all, I should have told them no, right? I shouldn’t have led them on by being nice and having a conversation with them. I shouldn’t have asked who their favorite band was or what they liked to write.

And the friends and authority figures that I went to for help and protection reacted pretty similarly. “Just tell him to get lost,” said my friends, about the man who had repeatedly described to me his fantasies of killing everyone in the world but the two of us. “I’ll call him in and we’ll sit down and have a mediation session,” said my Resident Advisor, about the man who had come into my dorm room when I was not either not present or, more likely, asleep and used my personal computer. “You can tell him that you are uncomfortable with his behavior.”

I eventually figured out, to some degree, that I was not responsible for their behavior. But this entry has put it into terms so concise, and illuminated for me all the corners of my experience that I simply couldn’t understand. (Why was it so hard to say no? Why, even when I got up the courage to say no, did I have to make an excuse that preserved his ego? Why, when he brushed that excuse aside, did it get progressively harder to say no each time I had to say it instead of easier?)

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Annie Moose permalink

June 15, 2010

Just got to this post through an LJ post by Bookshop that a friend of mine linked to on a forum I frequent, and… when I initially read through the post, it hit me hard. Every word of this is so true, and it hit me very hard indeed, because it perfectly summed up everything I see as wrong in our “rape culture”, as Bookshop put it. I was very lucky in that I was raised with parents and in an environment that heavily stressed firm boundaries in relationships (I was raised as in a strong Christian family) and how romantic relationships should be partnerships first. I’ve never been abused (sexually, physically, emotionally, or any other way), I’ve never been in an unhealthy relationship, and I’ve never been raped. I don’t date (again, due to my family), I don’t go to bars (I’m only 18, anyway), and I try not to encourage male attention, so as I read this initially, I sort of breathed a sigh of relief as I thought “I recognize this all as very important and very true, but boy, I’m glad none of this ever happened to me.”

Then I started reading the comments, and all of a sudden I realized that yes, it (unwanted male attention that bordered on creepy/sexual) has happened to me… and the very worst thing of all is that I didn’t even realize it. The one incident that stands out to me the most happened on a school trip to see Spanish dancers with my Spanish class. I didn’t have a lot of friends in that class, so the person I was hanging out with on that trip was the older brother of my best friend, who I knew and was sort of friends with in passing. (as in, we didn’t hang out or anything, but we knew each other and talked in class and so on) So we’re talking on this trip, maybe I was flirting a little bit (I want to emphasize that I was only about 14 at this point and had never had a boyfriend, so I was hopelessly innocent), and we end up sitting next to each other to watch the show.

And he promptly puts his hand on my thigh.

I didn’t know what to do. I was the good girl. I didn’t get into situations like this, because I didn’t wear revealing clothing, I didn’t flirt with guys (much), I didn’t even hang out with them much, at least not outside of school. I remember just sort of freezing inside, not saying anything, just sort of moving my leg and pretending I didn’t notice it. To his credit, the semi-friend didn’t push it, and he never did anything like that again, but I was still left with this terrible feeling of guilt that I still have today of… was I sending the wrong signals? Did I give him the wrong feeling about me? Did I encourage him to do that, even though I didn’t mean to? And of course there’s the feeling of maybe that was just an innocent gesture, maybe he didn’t mean anything by it, maybe I’m blowing this way out of proportion. I never mentioned it to anyone, and we never talked about it, but I’ve lived with this lurking guilt ever since. As I was reading these comments, this occurrence jumped back into my mind, and… I suddenly realized that those feelings of guilt I’ve held all these years, those are the result of a society that tells me that as a woman, it’s my fault guys are attracted to me. They’re just guys, they can’t help being attracted to a woman. I need to be careful what I do, say, and wear, because otherwise guys will get the wrong idea about me, and when they take liberties it will be my fault. I shouldn’t have been flirting with the guy in the first place, et cetera.

But this article has made me realize that I was wrong. I was completely wrong. Yeah, OK, so the guy backed off when it was obvious I wasn’t responding. Sure, it wasn’t really sexual harassment, or even anything serious. But it was something I never asked for and didn’t want, and there is nothing wrong with that. If he misread my signals, that’s his problem. It is not my fault that he didn’t realize I wasn’t really looking for that kind of attention. And now that I think about it, it is especially not my fault, because what kind of guy just starts touching a girl when they barely know each other and the only possible attention they’ve paid to each other is a little flirting on an hour-long bus ride?

Thank you so much for writing this article. From reading the comments, I know people with a lot more serious issues than mine have been helped with their problems, but I’m just glad that you were about take this weight off my life. I’m going off to college in the fall, and I readily admit I’m nervous about the kind of attention I might get there, but this article has really helped me to realize that I’m in charge of my life, and if I don’t want to do something in it, I don’t have to. Call me innocent, call me lucky that that’s the worst thing that ever happened to me, but when you do I will tell you (as Harriet Jacobs has just taught me) that it doesn’t matter how trivial it seems, if it hurts or disturbs me in any way, it’s wrong and needs to be dealt with. No matter what.

Like or Dislike: 6 1
Harriet J permalink*

June 15, 2010

Moose: Though you didn’t get to escape the crap everybody has to deal with, your parents still did you a tremendously good turn. There are a lot of people (like me!) who experience far greater abuses — some so great they seem, on face value, to be obviously wrong and horrible — who take years to say and believe something so clear-headed as “If he misread my signals, that’s his problem.”

College can be a cesspool of misogyny. Everybody’s trying on identities, and exaggerated gender performances are popular and easy ways to go. You’ll almost certainly run into more situations that are deeply uncomfortable or confusing or even traumatic, and you certainly won’t always act the way you later wish you had. But knowing you’ve got the ability to review this shit and put it in its proper place is going to get you through a lot better than most. Be sure to come back and tell us about it.

Like or Dislike: 4 0
Saphira permalink

December 12, 2010

Oh. My god. This post might just be the most amazing thing I have ever seen.

15 years ago, I was raped by someone I’ll just call a friend of the family. I was so shocked, so completely incapable of processing what was going on, that I shut down completely, aside from lying there with my hands over my face thinking, “This is not happening to me, this is not happening to me.” And the worst thing is that it took me 14 years to realize that, yes, it really WAS rape, in no small part because I never struggled and I never said no. We’re taught so many times that rape has to be a violent thing, and while the act is inherently violent in this situation, it was nothing like the kind of violent we hear about on the news, so…was it really rape? If I had to ask, didn’t that answer my question? As it turns out, NO, the thoughts going through my head–which I’d never really given much attention to after the fact–were more than enough answer, but it took a friend pointing that out before I really wrapped my head around it, practically a lifetime later.

And then my minister pointed out that of course I couldn’t say no, because I’d never been allowed to. Cue brain seizing up and inability to respond to the situation. It made perfect sense to me, and is why I swear this post could be about me. Thanks so much for writing it.

Like or Dislike: 8 0